Catherine McNiel—Year C Easter Prep 5, Passion, Easter 1-2

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now, onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Catherine McNiel. Catherine is an author, hospital chaplain, and speaker at conferences and retreats. Her books include Fearing Bravely, Long Days of Small Things, and All Shall Be Well. She is currently a Master of Divinity student at North Park University in Chicago. And you can learn more about Catherine by visiting her website at CatherineMcNiel.com. And we’ll put that in our show notes so you can visit her and her work later on.

Catherine, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, your backstory, and how you’re joining Jesus in his ministry these days.

[00:01:44] Catherine: Well, thank you, Anthony. I’m thrilled to be here with you with our listeners. My story and my backstory — I’m a little bit of a jack of all trades when it comes to life and ministry. I have three teenagers, so that is definitely a major component of my life.

As you mentioned, I’m also a writer. I’d spend lots of my days with words and specifically, as a ministry, studying the Bible, figuring out how to teach either through book form or Bible studies, devotions, through leading retreats. I love to have one hand in God’s word and another hand in the real lives of the people around me and the people who interact with my words.

My work as a chaplain in the hospital uses a different but similar muscle as I come alongside people in some of their darkest moments and hopefully bring the light and the peace of Christ with me as I go. And I’m also working at the moment as a pastoral intern at a local church as part of my work for my MDiv.

So, a little bit of everything at the moment. But it’s a joyful collaboration of events.

[00:03:06] Anthony: You sound quite busy. And I am curious, Catherine, which of the three teenagers is your favorite?

[00:03:14] Catherine: I’m not allowed to answer that question publicly. No, my attorneys — I’m just kidding. I do love them all. I was warned about the teenage years, and it is harrowing. And it is exhausting, but it is also delightful. It’s amazing to see these people that I have known since before they were even in my arms so themselves. And to find out who they are as growing, nearly adult people. And the relationship that we have built as a family all this time. It is truly a stunning thing to behold. So, I feel grateful.

[00:03:56] Anthony: What a testimony of God’s love.

[00:03:59] Catherine: Yes.

[00:03:59] Anthony: I’m sure if I had them on this podcast, they would rate you a 10 out of 10 as a mother. And so, thank you for all you’re doing, and your labor of love and service to Christ and the people around you. We have no doubt that you are a gift. And thinking about what you do — you talked about your love for words. You interact with them. Frequently.

[00:04:21] Catherine: Yes.

[00:04:21] Anthony: And one of your books is called Fearing Bravely, which is — I love it. It’s intriguing. It seems like a bit of a dichotomy. How do you do something bravely while fearing? But I’m sure that is all held together. So, tell us about it, and maybe what you want your readers to take away from that particular book.

[00:04:43] Catherine: Well, I’m so glad you asked, Anthony. My editor and publisher and I went around and around trying to find just the right words for this book. The subtitle is Risking Love for Our Neighbors, Strangers, and Enemies. And the kind of overall message that I am trying to give in this book or to explore, to wrestle with, is that Jesus gave pretty clear marching orders, you might say, or invitation, you might say, to his followers to love extravagantly because we were first loved and because we have found a love that is greater than even death.

And therefore, we are free to love sacrificially our neighbors as we love ourselves. And then Jesus expands that to loving even strangers, especially those who are traveling migrants, immigrants who are extra vulnerable in our communities. And then he expands that even to loving our enemies. And that is a hard teaching.

And what I have seen, you know, with one hand in the Bible, with Jesus’ teaching here, and the way he lived that out, and how the early church wrestled with living that out. But then I have my other hand in our real world and in our conversations. And I find that we are not, by and large, being discipled by that love, to love.

We are so thoroughly being discipled by fear, and it is that fear that we are being discipled by that keeps us from loving, keeps us from loving our neighbors because we’re afraid of them, keeps us from loving strangers because we’re terribly afraid of them, and certainly our enemies.

And I wanted to take a look at what’s happening there, at, you know, the fear that we have as humans. It is not on its own a bad thing. We are going to be afraid. It is a normal and even necessary part of human existence.

You know, if I put my hand on a hot stove and I didn’t feel pain, I would be destroyed very quickly. I would make life choices that were destructive. And I would, I could not survive if I did not have that experience of pain, that memory of pain to make me afraid of doing that kind of behavior in the future. This is part of the way God made us, part of the good way that God made us — to be aware of threats and to stay away from them or to plan around them.

But I do strongly believe that our fears are being exploited right now for some to gain power at the expense of the most vulnerable. And so, I wanted to look at Jesus’ teaching. This has become a very long answer to your simple question, but I wanted to look at how we cannot claim to be unafraid, but receive Jesus’ teaching, knowing that we are afraid. But we are going to be brave, courageous, and choose to be discipled by love instead of discipled by fear.

[00:07:55] Anthony: That’s a simple yet profound word because, you know, we look at Jesus’ teachings, the imperative or maybe the invitation that he gave us most frequently was to not be afraid.

[00:08:08] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:08:09] Anthony: Fear not.

[00:08:09] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:08:10] Anthony: You know, even in saying an imperative, it could feel like Jesus is pointing his finger at us, wagging it, going, “don’t you fear.” That’s never the way I’ve read it.

It’s like he understands the human condition because, guess what? He’s human. He’s fully God, but fully human. He understands. We have a high priest who gets it. And I think underneath what breaks relationship and ultimately for me, Catherine, that’s what sin is, is fear. Like underneath it all really at the root is fear. And, you know, the good — I was just, as you were talking, I’m thinking about that moment where Jesus is with Simon Peter and they’d been, you know, Peter cast his net and caught all this fish, and he realized he was in the presence of the divine, and he realized who he was, and “get away from me, Lord.”

And Jesus says, “… don’t. Don’t be afraid. Let’s go do something together.” And that’s what gives us courage, right? It’s that we’re doing it with Jesus, not in our own strength and might, but because he goes with us, because he has love for the stranger, for the one who considers himself an enemy of God, for one who is the immigrant, you know. This is who God is. And so, we can be strong. And I don’t mean to be responding back to your book. It’s your book, but I’m just thinking, yes, to everything you said, that’s who we should be. Right?

[00:09:29] Catherine: Yes, absolutely. This is, and I do like the word invitation because while I, I see it as a command for myself as a follower of Jesus, we do so quickly, again, become afraid even of God. Not the reverent fear of God, but terror and anxiety that we are going to be abandoned, rejected, and then I think we become paralyzed. But in this invitation, in this command is life and life abundant.

[00:10:02] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God.

We’re here to talk about the lectionary text. So, we’re going to move to that. And our first passage of the month is Philippians 3:4b-14. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition (NRSVUE). It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday of Easter Prep / Lent on April 6.

… even though I, too, have reason for confidence in the flesh. If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: ⁵ circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; ⁶ as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. ⁷ Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. ⁸ More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ ⁹ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith. ¹⁰ I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death, ¹¹ if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.¹² Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal, but I press on to lay hold of that for which Christ has laid hold of me. ¹³ Brothers and sisters, I do not consider that I have laid hold of it, but one thing I have laid hold of: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, ¹⁴ I press on toward the goal, toward the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus.

Whew. There’s a lot in this text. And you know, as I’m rereading it, I often hear people say, Catherine, that they want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection as we see in verse 10. Amen.

[00:12:17] Catherine: Yes.

[00:12:18] Anthony: Yet I seem to rarely hear people continue the statement by saying, I also want to know the share of his sufferings. You know, is that just me? As we look ahead to Holy Week, how might we become like him in his death, as Paul wrote, awakening us to the power of his resurrection and knowing Christ?

[00:12:39] Catherine: Yeah, that is the question I think for us to wrestle with every day. We never, I think, answer that. We’re always, like Paul said, pressing on towards the goal because we haven’t attained it. But to answer your first question, it is not just you. One thing that strikes me so much as I dig into the Bible is that even the disciples who had Jesus in their midst, day after day, night after night, they gravitated to the glory parts of following the Messiah and they somehow just could not wrap their minds around the suffering part.

Just recently we were studying the Transfiguration account for Transfiguration Sunday and here they are in this incredible moment on top of the mountain. Jesus’ face and clothing has transformed. Moses and Elijah are there. Somehow, they have been caught up in this, you know, this place where heaven and earth come together in Jesus, which — who has access to that?

And they want to stay there. You know, they say, let’s build some tents here. But if we come out a bit from that one passage, at least in the way Luke tells it, right before the mountain and right after the mountain, Jesus is saying to his disciples, you are right that I am the Messiah. But the Messiah is going to suffer, is going to be rejected by all the people in power, is going to be killed, going to be crucified.

And if you want to follow me, you have to take up your cross. You have to expect rejection. You have to expect suffering and death. And I think it’s interesting that this story of the transfiguration with all the glory is sandwiched between these two stories of remember, this is a narrative of suffering. This is a life choice of suffering. And even the disciples could not wrap their minds around it.

And we are still having that problem. Like you point out, we are still raising our hands to sing of the glory that is ours in Christ and are so taken aback by the suffering that is ours in Christ. And looking at Paul here, I love keeping the storyline of his life, because it is really something. He began as he describes: circumcised on the eighth day, he has been a devout rule follower and a seeker of God. From the beginning, he has all the credentials. He was the persecutor of the church. He was blameless when it comes to righteousness.

But how much did his story change when he met Jesus? When he saw the glory of Christ everything changed. And by the end of his life, we see an axe. He’s being driven, dragged from city to city, from court to court. He’s constantly being arrested and brought somewhere on accusation. In just about every conceivable religious and civil jurisdiction. It almost becomes laughable watching as more characters come in and have a different conspiracy theory about what Paul is doing and what it all means.

And they have to bring him to a different hearing and a different court. And in every opportunity, he lays out the good news of Jesus. He doesn’t spend any time defending himself or trying to build safety or a future for himself, but to build a future for the kingdom of God. And he is thrilled. He is sitting in prison at the end, writing joyful letters to the people that he loves around the world, because he has forgotten what lies behind and is straining forward to what is ahead. He is obtaining his goal that Christ has laid out for him.

And I think taking a look at this passage in Philippians in light of the story arc of Paul’s life, I think we can begin to see that, for ourselves, as we head into Holy week, as you said, there’s not going to probably be a moment where we can hold on to the transcendent power and glory of God that is ours in Christ and hold on to the suffering that is inherent in this life and even more so if we are truly keeping our eyes on Jesus and the work he has given us to do. But we can keep going step by step. And I think reminding each other that, just like the disciples, just like Paul, we do see with our eyes, and we touch with our hands the glory of the risen Christ. And we are on a path of suffering that cannot be escaped, and there are no shortcuts, but we keep our eyes on Jesus.

[00:17:47] Anthony: And thanks be to God. As the text goes on to say that we’re trying to take hold of something, but we’re only doing so because Christ has laid hold of us.

[00:17:56] Catherine: Yes. Yes.

[00:17:58] Anthony: So, he has us in his, his grip of grace, even as we participate in his sufferings. And I don’t know about you, Catherine, but for me I’ve learned so much more about God’s love, his tenderness, his presence through suffering than I ever have through the fluff of life. And that doesn’t mean I’m asking for more suffering, right, at all, but there is good there. And we so quickly label something as bad in our lives, but he intends it for good. Something good and beautiful is emerging from that.

And so that kind of leads to the question I wanted to ask you next. And I’m going to invite you to be personal if you’re willing. And, you know, Paul wrote about, regarding everything is lost because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ. Have you experienced loss of something that at the time it just felt, and maybe you labeled it as bad and just something, ah, gut wrenching, but out of that came this knowing of Christ more intimately and in such a way that you look back on it somehow, some way, mysteriously, with joy?

[00:19:14] Catherine: Yes. I want to begin by saying what you said, you know — we don’t ask for suffering. I don’t think we are asked to ask for it. But it comes to us, and I think the posture with which we receive it is what makes the difference. Suffering can break us, make us bitter and brittle, or it can be the soil in which God plants his seeds, I think, in the soil of the death of our lives.

The personal question? I actually have been thinking about this quite a lot recently because I have a book coming out this coming June called Mid Faith Crisis. And in this book, I tell more personal stories than I’ve maybe told in the past about my own life, my own faith, my own journey with God. And I do tell quite a few stories of suffering and loss there because I want to be honest about the difficulties that we face in life and we face in faith, but while never believing that God has abandoned me.

One of the primary stories that I tell is of when I was very young. I was 12 years old. And, out of a set of circumstances that is definitely difficult to summarize briefly here, my family was literally asked to leave town. So it was, my dad was a pastor and the church that he pastored preferred for us to kind of disappear. So, we were given a very short period of time in order to disappear and were not able to really have any support as we went to restabilize us and into our future or to retain any relationships going forward. And so, in a very real way, I lost everything at that time. I lost everyone I had known, everyone that I would have considered a community. Not just as loss, but as rejection.

And I lost everything that I had on a material level as well. But even on an identity level. When the community that formed you chooses not to know you or give access to themselves to you, then it’s — I don’t think I could explain the depth of that loss on an identity level. So, I was 12, obviously not at fault in any way.

And that has been, I think, the driving story of my life for a long time in a way that was painful and death. But as the decades have turned and time has gone by, I have seen God bring new life from that death. And I have seen that all the most beautiful and strong parts of my life are directly connected to that, to the deep gash of pain and death that that situation was.

And not in a way that could be turned into a formula, not in a way that would cause me to look at someone else in pain and say, “Oh, yes, you know, this is all for God’s glory and goodness.” Because pain is painful, and suffering is suffering. But as I wrote about in another book, some of the most beautiful flowers that we can find on this planet come in the desert after a long, long, long wait.

All that I grow in my garden comes from the compost that is the death of last season’s life. And I have found without a doubt that the greatest deaths in my life, the deepest valleys of suffering have been where in time, and not with ease and not with silver linings, but with deep journeying and wrestling, God has brought new life most vividly, most beautifully, most strongly in the areas of my greatest loss.

And so, I do say with Paul, that I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection. And while I don’t ask for more suffering, I do acknowledge that becoming like him in his death, we do somehow attain the resurrection from the dead.

[00:24:00] Anthony: So beautifully stated, and I’m humbled that you would share that with us, Katherine. And I’m just trying to imagine being 12 years old, which is already a difficult time of transition …

[00:24:12] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:24:13] Anthony: … between the teen and finding who you are and exploring identity and to have all that taken away. And yet you know, this is one of those things when you talk with people about loss and suffering, it’s not like you’re ever happy it’s happened to them. But yet, you’re you, and that was very formative, it sounds like to me. And so, you can call it joy because the Christian life is death and resurrection and those deaths, it’s like every day there are tiny deaths and then there are deaths that we put in books because they were so significant to our life. But how you praise God that he, his resurrection is real. Yeah. And your life speaks as a testimony to that reality.

[00:25:06] Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. God’s goodness I think becomes evident when we find that somehow, we have persevered, and we have found love, and we have found goodness even in the valley of the shadow of death.

[00:25:25] Anthony: Our next passage of the month is Philippians 2:5–11. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Liturgy of the Passion, April 13. Catherine, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:25:38] Catherine: I would love to.

Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, ⁷ but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, assuming human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. ⁹ Therefore God exalted him even more highly and gave him the name that is above every other name, ¹⁰ so that at the name given to Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, ¹¹ and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[00:26:29] Anthony: What a Christological hymn. And I’m so thankful that this particular pericope shows up once if not twice every year in the lectionary cycle. Because, man, we have to keep coming back to it and singing this song.

[00:26:43] Catherine: Yes.

[00:26:43] Anthony: And the Christology is breathtaking. And so, speaking of understanding Christ, what does this passage reveal about the God we see in Jesus Christ, Catherine?

[00:26:56] Catherine: Well, Anthony, I’m so glad you asked that. This is possibly my favorite question. Come on. This is what the disciples had such a hard time grasping, as we saw earlier, and it is what we have such a hard time grasping today, and it is the core of the good news. One thing we maybe have a hard time seeing from our modern vantage point is that in Paul’s Greco Roman culture, hymns like these were written and sung to express praise and allegiance to a human man who had risen to the status of a god, such as the emperor. The hymn would tell of his mighty deeds, status, and the power he obtained, the names he had won for himself. And this hymn does that, but with a profound and powerful difference. All the values are upside down. Everything here is opposite. It’s like a satire.

Rather than a man becoming god, we have god becoming man. Rather than this man accumulating power and status, Jesus is divesting himself of these things, even though they are rightfully his. Rather than an account of his mighty deeds, Jesus becomes a servant, taking the lowest position, even as a slave, performing deeds of obedience, even obedience in death.

Even the most publicly humiliating death is set aside for the lowliest slaves. To the Roman world, this would have been the opposite of praiseworthy, the opposite of what the gods or even men would do. And yet Paul declares, this is how Jesus won for himself a name.

And not just any name. God is exalting Jesus to the highest place. It gives him the name that is above every other name, so that every knee will bow, that every voice agree together that Jesus is Lord. And Paul says that this is to God’s glory. And if this is God’s glory, we need to take a second look at who God is. For this God is nothing like we expected or have seen before.

This hymn about Jesus is a hymn about God and God’s character and it is mind blowing, life changing, world changing. Paul looks to Jesus, who holds eternal equality with God, and describes what he did with his position and power. And here’s where our attention is grabbed. We’re used to people with power and position using it to defend what they have and gaining more.

If there’s anyone in the universe who could be excused for doing this, it would be God. But this is the opposite of what Jesus does. God does not forcefully seize or violently defend his status. God does not grasp power. God divests himself of power. It’s worth sitting with this for a moment, because we live in a world where might makes right, where politicians and CEOs and even pastors are often known for forcefully seizing or violently defending their status, their wealth, their position. And God does not do this. I’m not sure that we can wrap our minds around what an enormous statement this is. God, who rightfully has all power and authority, still does not seize what is rightfully his. And he does not use his power against us.

Even in leaving behind his heavenly status, Jesus could have become an earthly king, a wealthy aristocrat, or a powerful influencer. But God came low, not just a little bit, he went all the way. Jesus divested himself, became a human, and took the form of a slave, humbled to the lowest position, becoming obedient not only to incarnation, but to death. And not just any death, not a death of satisfying old age. God submitted himself to the most publicly humiliating death known at that time, which was crucifixion.

It’s as if God is using the most exaggerated and direct image possible to say what the world values and what the world thinks is godliness is dangerous and wrong. Let me show you vividly just how different I am than you think I am.

In the Roman world, similar to now, the emperor values were strong on masculine might and power and status. There was no virtue at all in being humble or submissive or weak. The gods clearly demonstrated their favor through gifts of power and strength and even violence. Death was the linchpin of weakness and humiliation. To be killed as a criminal at the hands of the empire through the public torture crucifixion — there literally could be no greater humiliation.

And therefore, there could not be anything further from godliness. For in their eyes, godliness was masculine, powerful, violent, and victorious. But God says no. God says, I disagree. And then God shows us what he does value, what is good and right in God’s eyes. And he shows us vividly.

God’s response to Jesus’ utter and public humiliation, from deity to human, from power to slave, from heaven to earth, from life to death, from victory to defeat, from glory to humiliation, was not to turn his back on Jesus, but to exalt Jesus, to honor and endorse Jesus, to give to Jesus the highest name in all the earth and above the earth and below the earth. God speaks definitively in Jesus and says, “This is who I am, and this is what goodness looks like.”

[00:32:50] Anthony: Wow, that’s … just what do you say? But wow, it is so utterly not what you expect. And so, we can rightly say with God, expect the unexpected. And, you know, he does — you talked about him divesting a power — he also reframes what real power looks like. It looks like cruciform love. It looks like laying down your life for the sake of the other, which is again, utterly unexpected. Yes. And that brings us to this kind of concept of kenosis, of self-emptying, which was unexpected, that we read in verse seven.

And we know that by the Spirit. As disciples, followers of Jesus, we want to become more Christlike in our self-emptying. So, teach us about this nature we see in Christ and, how do we get practical with that or embrace ways of self-emptying in our own lives?

[00:33:46] Catherine: Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, these sorts of hymns were written at that time to praise and deify a man who had, according to the emperor and the empire’s values, achieved God status and a name for himself through great and powerful deeds. So, to the Philippians who first read this, these verses would sound like satire, very poignant satire for everything. All the structure is in place for the hymn, but everything is so very upside down.

Instead of a man becoming God, Paul is singing of a God becoming man. Instead of earning a name and a place of status through powerful deeds, Jesus is earning the very highest name through service, humiliation, through death. And the contrast between what was expected and what was sung would have been scandalous.

And as we bring it down to us here today, 2,000 years later, what strikes me is how very similar a situation we’re in. We are still surrounded by an empire and empire values that insist that we should hold on to what’s ours, that we should grasp for more, that we should be ready to fight for our rights.

And we still platform powerful men who are willing and able to climb on the backs of the vulnerable all the way to the top. And we are still harmed by those who use God and goodness to seize for themselves or to defend themselves. So, I opened a discussion recently on social media to ask friends of mine to describe a time, either personally and recently, or historically, something they’d read when someone used the name of God or Christ to grasp power or privilege to the detriment of others.

And you won’t be surprised that the responses just poured in. Some people mentioned notorious historical figures who destroyed countless lives and impacted generations out of their greed and evil but used God’s name. And many, many more people named folks closer to home, like relatives, community members, church leaders, community leaders, who genuinely believed that God’s call on their lives was to grasp and to take, to enforce, to hold authority, rather than to empty themselves, to become a servant, to serve, to give, to pour out, to live out of compassion, that fearlessness, that love.

But the Christian way of life and the Christian community cannot look like the empire. We are called, and we have accepted the call, to empty ourselves, and we trust that as we follow Jesus, that God will lift us up to that resurrection that Paul was talking about earlier.

[00:36:27] Anthony: Yeah. I often hear it referred to as the upside down kingdom because it doesn’t look like empire of the day. But I had a friend recently say, no, that’s not right. It’s the right side up kingdom because it’s what true reality looks like. What we’re doing here is upside down. It is not kingdom principle, kingdom ethic. And so, I think that dude does truly speak to … there are practical ways … I remember Eugene Peterson saying resurrection is not just about the future tense and what is to come. It is the way that I live my life in the here and now — at a particular place with a particular people. Is the kingdom emerging in my midst? And that’s what we want to participate in, because guess what? This is what Christ is doing unexpectedly. This is what he’s doing.

[00:37:18] Catherine: I love that Eugene Peterson talks about, like this time in this place, because I do think we get overwhelmed by all that’s going wrong across the globe. But we are called to love our neighbors and to build community and to impact the city that we live in. And I think part of where this becomes practical, where we live, this right size kingdom, is right here on the ground where we are. And I think that can be grounding for us to remember that the principalities and powers of this world are beyond what you and I can impact, although we know that Jesus, the Spirit, lives in us, we have already overcome. We can seek justice and mercy and live humbly and love our neighbors with compassion, with hospitality, in a very practical, very local, very grounded and rooted way. And I think that both, it gives us hope and gives us next steps. And I find that to be helpful.

[00:38:22] Anthony: Yes. Very helpful. I’m so glad you said that. You know, there was this term in business years ago about thinking globally but acting locally and they called it glocal. And, ultimately, it’s the gospel. It’s like we think in big picture ways, but how does that get lived out? You know, when we think of neighbor, what about the person that’s just sleeping 40 feet away from me in the next house or the next apartment or whatever. You know, how am I loving them? Yes. It gets very practical then.

Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month. It’s John 20:1–8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Easter Resurrection of the Lord, April 20. And it reads:

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. ² So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” ³ Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. ⁴ The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. ⁵ He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. ⁶ Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, ⁷ and the cloth that had been on Jesus’s head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. ⁸ Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed, ⁹ for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. ¹⁰ Then the disciples returned to their homes. ¹¹ But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb, ¹² and she saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. ¹³ They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” ¹⁴ When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. ¹⁵ Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” ¹⁶ Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). ¹⁷ Jesus said to her, “Do not touch me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” ¹⁸ Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and she told them that he had said these things to her.

The resurrection of Jesus changes everything. And I know that’s just a massive understatement. And sometimes it’s difficult to put the Easter celebration into words. Preachers, writers, sages have attempted to herald the profundity of the resurrection.

So, as an author, a herald of the gospel, I’d like to give you the floor to make your attempt of why the bodily resurrection matters.

[00:41:43] Catherine: Well, like you said, what words, what human words could ever express this? It’s like the sun. You know, we live by its light, but we can’t look at it. We can’t touch it.

I think we can continue to describe all the effects and all of the implications and all of the new life that comes from the resurrection, but I don’t know that we can ever find the words to describe, or even understand that moment, that impact itself. But the resurrection does change everything.

Like we’ve looked at several times today already, before the resurrection, while Jesus was in their physical midst, and they could touch him, and they slept back to back with him, and they walked side by side with him, and they ate with him every day, they were afraid and confused, and profoundly so, arguing about who was going to be greater in the kingdom, and running away at the first sign of danger. And in the same ways that we are ourselves confused and afraid, but deeply and profoundly missing the point, even though Jesus was right there.

But after the resurrection, something truly changed. They became bold, joyful. They banded together. They changed the world. And they did, as we’ve looked, they joined Jesus in his resurrection, but also in his suffering. Nothing became easy for them after the resurrection. It became much harder. But they were somehow empowered, they were fearless, they became bold and joyful, and they took the world by storm.

So, what it is exactly that changed in them when they saw the risen Jesus and were filled by the Holy Spirit? Only God, I think, knows. But we have the gospel today because the impact that it made in them was so profound. I actually opened my book — that book Fearing Bravely that we talked about before — I actually opened it with a retelling of this story of Mary at the tomb and how stunning and shocked she was, how she saw Jesus and he said her name and she ran to tell his friends. But then I also shift the story to describe them later that day. They are huddled in an empty room and at the top of a building with the door locked and they are, they don’t know what’s going on. Their friend, their teacher, their rabbi, the man they were publicly associated with among a huge crowd has been violently and publicly executed by the state, and of course they are afraid.

But now also there is this word that he’s alive, and I’m sure that was also even more terrifying. And yet suddenly, Jesus is there. It doesn’t say Jesus knocked on the door or turned the handle. We know the door was locked. It just says, and then Jesus was with them. And after that is when everything changes.

And I think partially bodily resurrection matters because when we grasp — if we can grasp — that we are freed from the fear of death, that the God we know in Jesus, this God of compassion and justice and mercy is the one who is the Alpha and the Omega, who holds the keys to life and death, who has opened a path to resurrection, then a whole world of opportunities opens up for us.

We’re free to love our neighbors as ourselves, as we talked about. We’re free to care for strangers around us, to love even our enemies, even if it’s costly, even if it’s sacrificial, even if it’s dangerous. Because if God has defeated death, if God has promised to be with us with this love that surpasses knowledge and this peace that passes all understanding, if this God has promised to be with us, not only every day of our lives, but even as we walk to and through and out of death, then what could possibly stop us from living this life of love? I think it’s as the Holy Spirit convicts us and convinces us of this reality that we are empowered like the disciples to go out and love with God’s love and confront the forces of evil with goodness, because what could possibly harm us if God’s thread, if God’s hand will be holding us even in the dark.

[00:46:33] Anthony: Yes. We look at this passage, and Mary Magdalene is — of course, Christ is central — but Mary is enormous, and we read in other resurrection texts about the other women being the first evangelists telling the story of the risen Lord. What can we learn about Mary in terms of sharing good news of the risen and ascended Lord?

[00:46:56] Catherine: Well, I love the way you’ve worded that because, you say, what can we learn from Mary? We learn literally everything from Mary. We know about the good news of the risen Lord because of Mary. And I assume that if she had become bashful and afraid and run off and hidden, Jesus would have found another way to communicate with his friends and his followers.

We do know because of Mary, and I think we see in her story the excitement, the … you know. I described earlier the resurrection as absolutely world changing, life changing, altering in every way. It helps us to live in that right-sided-up kingdom because we no longer have to fear the earthly kingdoms.

We can now keep our eyes only on Jesus who has defeated death. And so, there’s excitement there. This is the glass more than half full, you know, like we don’t need to get bogged down by all of the troubles that do come hand in hand with this story, you know, again, like the followers of Jesus were dogged and sought after by everyone who held power for the whole rest of their lives, which included suffering and imprisonment and death.

But they didn’t even care. They counted it all loss for the sake of Jesus. And we see that first in Mary, who has heard the voice of the Lord that she intimately knows, and she heard him say her name, and that was enough for her. She couldn’t understand the theology of it, or the implications of it, or the 2, 000 years of discussing it, but she knew that he was alive. And she was filled with excitement and courage, and she ran forth and shared that exciting news with those she loved. And I think that’s what we learned from her.

[00:48:54] Anthony: Yeah. She’s such a great model for this. Yeah. Jesus himself said before he ascended in Acts 1:8, that when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, the Spirit will come in power, and you’ll be my witnesses. You’ll tell the story, you’ll lay down your life — which is what that word in the Greek means — that it’s almost like Mary couldn’t help it. Yeah, she was probably fearing bravely, you know, that’s, I mean, you’re just in awe that this Lord has risen and it’s scary and you don’t know what comes next, but courageously you go, and you tell people.

[00:49:31] Catherine: Yes.

[00:49:32] Anthony: This is really, really good news.

[00:49:34] Catherine: Yes. Amazing.

[00:49:40] Anthony: We’re in the homestretch here. The final pericope of the month comes to us from Revelation 1:4–8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday in Easter, which is April 27. Catherine, read it for us, please.

[00:49:56] Catherine:

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, ⁵ and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood ⁶ and made us a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. ⁷ Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. So it is to be. Amen. ⁸ “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

[00:50:52] Anthony: You mentioned earlier in the podcast that you’re a pastoral intern and working in a local church and proclaiming the word of God there.

So, if you were preaching to your congregation, what would be the focus of that proclamation? Preach preacher. Let’s hear it.

[00:51:08] Catherine: Okay. Well, wow. This. What a powerful text. It preaches itself. I’m tempted to just come up to the virtual pulpit and read this out and say, this is the word of the Lord and sit back down.

These are powerful words from the Spirit to John, to the churches, and to us. And I love how it is a capstone of everything we’ve talked about today, that it is Jesus who is the name above all names. It is in Jesus that we have, we see dominion forever and ever. He is the King over all the kings. He is the Lord over all the lords. And we are his kingdom. We are the priests serving him. To him be glory and dominion forever and ever. And he is coming. He is alive, as we learned from Mary.

What I love in these opening words in John’s letter to the churches, is that the focus is razor sharp on Jesus — not Jesus who lived for 30 years and is dead, but the Jesus who was from all times, and is, he is alive today, and he is to come.

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Almighty. If all power and dominion is given to Jesus, who has always been and will always be, then again, what do we have to fear? We can go forward joyfully proclaiming the resurrection, joyfully proclaiming that God, and goodness, and God’s view of the use of power is absolutely opposite of everything the world has to say.

And we can live lives of love and compassion. We can confront evil and overcome evil with goodness because we have the Spirit from Jesus, who is the almighty and everlasting. So, I would, I would preach to my listeners on this podcast or to those sitting in the congregation in front of me and to my teenagers as I hold their hands on these days that can be frightening and dark, scary.

We don’t know what’s happening. We don’t need to wait for an earthly kingdom or a community that is amenable to these ideas, to the way of compassion, to the way of sacrificial love. We don’t need to wait for a society that makes us feel safe before we love, because even though Jesus and his followers were killed by those who held power in their society, they were filled with joy.

They have been — Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father — and we believe that his followers have simply preceded us into the kingdom, and that he is the Alpha and the Omega. We have known, we have seen with our eyes, and we have touched with our hands, that there is no time or place where Jesus is absent.

God has given his endorsement solidly in Jesus. From everything that has happened, from what we are going through right now, and all that lies ahead, we keep our eyes on Jesus. Hallelujah.

[00:54:35] Anthony: Hallelujah, amen and amen. That word was all eat up with hope, if I can say it that way.

Catherine: Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:42] Anthony: And that’s, I mean, really isn’t that what we’re proclaiming — hope — and hope that does not disappoint, hope that doesn’t put us to shame, hope that doesn’t leave us at the altar alone and afraid, hope that is grounded in the person of Jesus who is our crown of glory? Hallelujah. Praise him. And this time went by quickly. Catherine, I’m so delighted you would join us. It’s wonderful to meet you and thank you for sharing the obvious gifts that God has given to you to articulate the good news of who Jesus Christ is. So, thank you for being with us.

[00:55:19] Catherine: Well, I’m delighted that you invited me. I’m glad to meet you and glad to meet all of you listening.

[00:55:25] Anthony: Yeah. And what we’ll do, friends, for those of you who are listening, we’ll put the links to Catherine’s books in the show notes so you can go and grab them for yourself and read them. I’m sure there are going to be many that do so. And thank you for supporting her as she supports her family and ministry in her context.

And friends, I want to leave you with an encouraging word from Richard Hayes, the late professor in my backyard at Duke Divinity here in Durham, North Carolina. He said, the church community in its corporate life is called to embody an alternative order that stands as a sign of God’s redemptive purposes in the world. So, I invite you, I think with the authority of Christ, to embody that alternative order, to be a culture of the kingdom that reveals the goodness of God, Jesus Christ.

I want to thank the team of people that helped make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. We do it as a team and it’s such a joy to have friends and colleagues that you love and like to be able to do work with. So, with that, we say thank you to them.

And Catherine, it is our order here at Gospel Reverb, it’s our tradition to end with prayer. So, would you say a word of prayer for us?

[00:56:40] Catherine: I would be honored to.

Heavenly Father, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we lift up our arms in joyful worship and gratitude that you are the one who was, and is, and is to com, that you have gone to such great lengths to communicate to us so vividly that you are not one who abuses power, but one who uses all that you have towards compassion, towards shalom, that you are making all things new, that your love had the first word, remains with us still today, and will have the final word.

We submit ourselves to you and to your kingdom. We look for your will and your presence in our lives today. And I pray for all those listening. I pray that they would feel your light on their face, that they would feel your hand on their back, that they would know your presence, and your love that surpasses knowledge, and your peace that passes all understanding. And I pray all this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

[00:57:46] Anthony: Amen.

---

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!