Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 1 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are thrilled to have Dr. Dennis Hollinger join us. Dennis Hollinger is President Emeritus and the Distinguished Senior Professor of Christian Ethics at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He has spent years as a Christian Ethics professor and has continued his work in writing into retirement.

So, thank you so much, Dennis, for joining us today.

Dennis: Thank you, Cara. It’s just a delight to be with you today. Appreciate the opportunity.

Cara: Absolutely. And your area of teaching and study with Christian ethics is really applicable to in GCI this year. Our theme that we’re exploring in terms of our ministry practices is kingdom culture.

And Christian ethics really fits right into that. And so, we are going to be starting today a three-part miniseries on Christian ethics. We will review in the first episode, what is Christian ethics? In the second episode, discipleship and Christian ethics. And then in the third episode, Christian ethics and ministry practice.

We encourage you all, listeners, to tune in for all three episodes of this miniseries. And today we’re just going to go ahead and jump right in with that kind of foundational or introductory question of what is Christian ethics? And so, Dr. Hollinger, how would you define Christian ethics for our listeners?

[00:02:18] Dennis: Well, Cara, it’s probably helpful just to, first of all, define what we mean by ethics. Ethics has to do with determining what’s right or wrong, good or bad, just or unjust. And of course, everybody does ethics, if you will. They think about, or at least they make some determination in their life of what’s right and what’s wrong.

Unfortunately for many people, what’s right and what’s wrong is what benefits them. What’s in it for me? That’s a kind of modern approach, I think. And Christian ethics, we’re thinking about the right and the wrong, the good, the bad, the just, the unjust, from a Christian worldview that is rooted in the Bible.

And as we think about Christian ethics, it always has, I think, two components to it. It has to do with our actions in all arenas of life, and it has to do with our character — who we are inwardly. And I think both of those are vitally important, particularly as we think about Christian ethics. So, it’s not just, what do I do in my daily life, what do I do in my work, what do I do in my home, in my community? But it’s also, who am I in my character? Because our character interactions are really deeply intertwined with each other.

[00:03:37] Cara: Yes, thank you for that definition and foundation. I really appreciate the kind of holistic approach that it’s both actions and character when we’re talking about Christian ethics.

And it sounds like, from what you said, that we all kind of practice some kind of ethic. It’s just, what’s the lens through which we do it, what are our kind of, maybe like, guiding posts in terms of like how we determine our character and actions that are formed in that. And so, I’m curious, how would you describe your approach to Christian ethics?

[00:04:12] Dennis: I would say that our overall approach needs to be rooted in the Christian worldview. That is our understanding of reality from a Christian standpoint. And the biblical story in the Christian worldview is, I think, encapsulated in four things: Creation — God creates a wonderful, beautiful world with humans made in his image.

Secondly, there is the fall. We turn away from God. And Genesis chapter 3 gives a portrait not only of Adam and Eve’s sin, but of our sin, our fallenness, our turning away from God. And then the third component is redemption. After the fall, God begins a process of calling a people out to himself with a promise that someday a redeemer would come and would bring redemption and salvation to human beings.

And that’s the third component then is that redemption in Jesus Christ. And then the final part is the final restoration, sometimes a consummation, when Christ returns and makes things all right. And that restoration, I think, is a restoration back to what God intended in creation. And so, I think all four parts of that are vitally important: the creation, the fall, the redemption, and the final restoration. But most recently I’ve written a book on the creation component because I think it’s so vital. And I think in our own time, it has been minimized and even rejected by a lot of people.

[00:05:50] Cara: Yes. And that I just want to mention is the work that you’ve written — Creation and Christian Ethics: Understanding God’s Designs for Humanity and the World. And so, I would love to hear a little bit more specifically about that creation aspect in these kind of four pieces that you just mentioned, and then, if you’re able to, after that, maybe just share a quick review of the fall, redemption, and restoration aspects.

[00:06:18] Dennis: Sure. With creation, I think it’s interesting that whenever Christians think about creation, so often they get embroiled in the controversies. When did God create the world and humans? How did God create? And we overlook, it seems to me, what is really at the heart of Genesis 1 and 2, and that is a story. It’s in story form, in a narrative that is very rich in theological understanding and in ethical understanding. And let me give you just a few examples of that and kind of what I unpack in my book that you just mentioned, Cara.

One of the first things that we see in the creation story in Genesis 1 is that after every day there is a pronouncement, “it is good.” It’s very, very interesting. We have other creation stories from the ancient world, but we don’t have anything like that in those other creation stories. The biblical story I think is quite unique along those lines. What is good? Interestingly, it’s not what we might think. If we were thinking what is good, we might think it’s prayer, it’s spiritual things, but what’s pronounced good are very material things.

God creates a physical earth. He creates the sun, moon, and stars. He creates vegetation in the natural world. He creates the animal world. And then he creates human beings, male and female, and pronounces them good. After he’s done with all the creation, God looks at everything he’s made and he says, Behold, it is very good.

Now, when we think about that, I think that has a lot of implications for ethics. And let me just take as an example three things that we often think of today as the big ethical issues in our world: money, sex, and power. I think a lot of people today would say, yeah, those are, the three big issues of our world, money, sex, and power.

And I think as Christians, we often think about those things in just very negative ways. If we go back to the creation story, money, sex, and power, are good gifts of God. And so, the issue then for us is not just to dwell on the misuses on the negative side but understand what are God’s purposes with these three things that are pronounced good in creation.

And by implication, I think money, sex, and power are all there in the creation story. No, the word money isn’t mentioned, but the stuff of money is there as God creates the natural world for humans to utilize it and to care for it. And out of that would come an exchange that we eventually call money. And so, that’s foundational for thinking about any of the issues related to money, to sex, and to power. And indeed, those are three very, very big issues it seems to me in our world today. That’s just one example of one chapter in my book, but I think it just has profound significance for Christians thinking about these issues in a way that’s going to lead us to be very different from the world around us.

[00:09:46] Cara: Yeah, I want to highlight, I really appreciate what you said. It’s not just about the misuse of these aspects of creation, but what are the intended purposes. And I think that that is really insightful for when we are kind of moving towards what does this mean, in our day-to-day life as disciples and as we participate in kingdom culture. I think that’s a very distinct approach, right? That it’s not just about naming and correcting the misuses, but what are the intended good purposes?

[00:10:20] Dennis: Yeah. Let me just give an example on the power issue, if I may, Cara.

[10:56:00] Cara: Yes, please.

[10:57:00] Dennis: It’s very interesting that when we hear the word power, we usually think negative — power is bad. A famous phrase is that power is just evil and great power is very evil. But power really is a good thing if it’s used correctly. All of us have forms of power in various dimensions of life. If you’re a parent, you have power. It’s capacity to shape things and mold things in life. Most of us on our jobs, no matter what your job, have some degree of power. In the church there is always some degree of power.

If you’re a Sunday school teacher, you have power as you are teaching that class. That is, you have a capability to shape and mold human minds for the glory of God. And so, power is taking that capacity that God has given us in the various arenas of life and using it, not for our own good, but using it for the glory of the kingdom of God — using it to shape human minds, using it to shape human hearts, using it to shape the world that God has put us in. And so, power is not an evil thing when it’s thought of in that way. And then it means that in the various arenas of life, wherever God has placed us, whatever capacities God has given to us, we really make sure that we’re using that power for the glory of God.

And Jesus talks about this, of course, when James and John on one occasion come to him, and they want high positions when he sets up the kingdom of God. And the other disciples are really angry at him and then Jesus goes on to give a statement about the way in which the world, the Gentiles leaders, are absorbed with power. They try to dominate each other, but he says not so with you, for the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. I think that’s a good paradigm for thinking about power that really goes back to the creation story, that whatever power capacities we have in various areas of life, we’re to use that to serve and to serve others and to serve the church and to serve the kingdom of God. That’s just one example of the many things that we find in the creation story.

[00:13:05] Cara: Yes, thank you. That’s a really helpful example that you’ve provided for us. And if you would give an overview of those three next movements and how that informs your approach to ethics?

[00:13:19] Dennis: Yeah. Let’s take the fall. I think a lot of people think, if we just get the right political government in place, the world will be changed, everything will be right. If we just have enough education in the world, everything will be right. If we just have enough new technology, we’ll make the world a new place.

But the fall really tells us that in our fallenness, we are not going to reshape this world into God’s kingdom. That kingdom is made through Christ. As Christians, we’re called to reflect the kingdom, which goes back to creation. But the fall reminds us that all of our human efforts will never change this world, this society, this country, or any country into the kingdom of God.

And the creation story is just rich in understanding ourselves, understanding our world. And why it’s so difficult for human beings to live out the creation story and those principles, those paradigms, as I like to call them, that really come out of creation. I think what we find in the chapter three of Genesis in the fall are several things that really are pertinent to the world and our lives today when it comes to ethics.

There’s an alienation from God. We no longer want to do what God has designed. And Adam and Eve decide they know better than God, they can go their own way in following the tempter. There’s an alienation from ourselves, so that there’s self-deception in the story in Genesis chapter 3.

There’s alienation from each other, so that now Adam comes to dominate his wife, and they are no longer in harmony with each other, and there’s an alienation from nature so that this natural world that God has given to shape and to steward and to develop, now there is domination in it, and so there is the language about the thorns and the thistles and the difficulties one faces in working in the world.

Those are all elements of the fall. Then there’s the story of redemption. Christ comes to redeem us, to make us right with God. And one of the results of that is that through Christ, we are also made right with each other. So that there’s a beginning in the heart and the mind and the lives of Christians, a turning away from the results of the fall, back toward what God designed in the first place, as we follow Christ. And so that redemption brings something new into the life, which is enabling, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to really live, then, the Christian ethics life.

And then there is the final restoration, which is a reminder that though we have been renewed in Christ, we have not experienced the final renewal. We know that we still fail, we still sin. We sometimes fail to live out the kind of character and the kind of actions that God calls us to through the power of the Holy Spirit.

And so that final restoration is when our own lives will be renewed, and also when the kingdoms of this world will be made into the kingdom of God. We’re called to be salt and light in this world. But the final restoration, the ultimate restoration, does not reside in our human efforts, it does not reside in the world of politics, it does not reside in the world of business, or any of the other things which may be good gifts of God, but are not the ultimate solution in our world today.

[00:17:15] Cara: Yes. Thank you for that overview. And I really appreciate that worldview and kind of story approach to — maybe the word I’m looking for is like a holistic or a wider view of how we’re informed about ethics. And starting from the creation through to restoration, I think, is how do we reflect, participate in the entire story of God and his creation.

And I do see it looks like you explore the impact or the implications of this kind of threefold or fourfold story of the Christian worldview and how that kind of informs a Christian approach to ethics also in your book, Choosing the Good, Christian Ethics in a Complex World. And so, that’s a really helpful overview if any of our listeners, want to learn a little bit more. Is that the best place for them to go and dig into that?

[00:18:12] Dennis: Yeah, I think the Choosing the Good book has been used as a textbook in a lot of colleges and seminaries. It’s an introduction to the field of Christian ethics.

And then my book, as you mentioned, Cara, on creation and Christian ethics is more probing into the creation story and what are the paradigms we draw out of that. So, in that book, for example, let me just give you a few other examples.

One of the things in the creation story is we’re made in the image of God. And one of the implications of that is that all human beings have great value and dignity. That has implications for racism and ethnocentrism. It has implications for guarding human life at the beginning in the womb and at the end of life. I do a whole chapter on creation care, that we’re called to steward creation.

I do a whole chapter on relationships, including sexuality and marriage and family that comes out of that paradigm in the creation story. I do a chapter on work. It’s really interesting that a lot of people don’t think about the way Sunday and Monday connect to each other, but work is not a result of the fall. It really goes back to the creation story. God himself works. And then it says on the seventh day, he ceases from his work and then he gives a job of work to human beings in the garden. So, work itself has significance in the Christian story and the Christian life. So those are among a number of other themes that I work out in that book, and I think are really vital as we think about Christian ethics in our world today.

[00:19:59] Cara: Thank you. Yes, that is a really helpful image and an example of some of the implications that that has. And I, to close out our time in this episode, I’m wondering — you started with a definition of ethics and then Christian ethics in particular. And then I’ve described your approach to Christian ethics through this fourfold story. And what are the paradigms that come out of that? And I’m wondering, from the start of our conversation — ethics can be practiced in a whole ton of different ways, right? And as you mentioned, maybe we make decisions about what’s right and wrong in our character for our own purposes or we have particular agendas. And so, what would you say, if you were to leave a final word with our listeners? What difference does it make to approach ethics from this Christian worldview?

[00:20:53] Dennis: I think living out a Christian ethic really points people to Christ, and so often when we think about our evangelism in the world today, we think about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ, but we don’t just share the good news. We live the good news. And I think that’s the big difference it makes.

When people see Christians living in a different way, whether it be in the world of business or government or medicine and, in those arenas, we’re not given exactly what we ought to do. I serve on an ethics committee at a large hospital here in Charlotte, North Carolina. And when we deal with issues in the world of medicine it’s not always clear. But, as a Christian, I have a worldview framework that helps me approach those very difficult issues, such as issues at the end of life, or issues about reproductive technologies, which are available today for couples who are experiencing being infertile, I should say. And I think in all of that, there’s a sense that, as a Christian, we have a coherent framework to approach issues that the New Testament writers had never even heard of, but that we face in our very complex world today. And as Christians, when we live that out, I think it bears a witness to the reality of the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in very powerful ways.

[00:22:28] Cara: Yes. Thank you so much. And I think that’s a really compelling image or desire to end our episode on. This is part of our witness as we live out in actions and character by his transforming power and presence with us, but that we have this coherence. I really liked that word that you used — maybe framework versus haphazard approach to deciding who we are and what we do because of that. So, I really appreciate that.

We are going to close out this first episode of the miniseries. We invite you listeners to tune in for the next episode on discipleship and Christian ethics. And I think that we’re going to see that there are some rich implications there, even just based on our conversation today in this episode.

So, Dennis, thank you so much for joining us today. We look forward to hearing from you in the next episode. And friends, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.