Kingdom Living (Part 1): Relational w/ Walter Kim

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Welcome to the first episode of our 2026 GC Podcast season. This year, we’re diving deep into Kingdom Living through two focused mini-series. We’re honored to begin with Dr. Walter Kim, President of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) and keynote speaker for the upcoming GCI Denominational Celebration.

In this episode, Dr. Kim joins our host, Cara Garrity, for a conversation on the relational nature of Kingdom Living. They discuss how we hear God’s voice and discover our calling. Dr. Kim also speaks about how we respond to God’s gifting through relationship with him and others. Together, they explore how calling is not just personal but communal, and how our response to God’s invitation is nurtured in the context of love, presence, and shared life.

“The last earthly night with his disciples, and what does [Jesus] do? He prays. He prays for them to be one, even as he’s one with the Father, that they would be one, so that the world would know. So, to recognize that this relational aspect of kingdom living is so important, that it was Jesus’ final thought and final prayer for us before he was crucified.” — Rev. Dr. Walter Kim

Main Points:

What does it mean for Kingdom Living to be relational? 02:40

What does it look like for calling and gifting to be discovered within relationship with God and with others? 05:46

How can response to God’s calling and gifting be lived out relationally? 09:10

What are practices that can help us nurture the relational nature of Kingdom Living? 23:26

Resources:

Discerning Gifting and Calling — a Church Hack that shares Biblical calling

Pastoral Calling — an article explaining that God calls a pastor to serve, guide, and equip others to follow Jesus with humility, faith, and love

Kingdom Living — a video introduction to our annual theme by President Greg Williams

Program Transcript

Kingdom Living (Part 1): Relational w/ Walter Kim

Cara: In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of kingdom living. In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world: faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. GC Podcast is created to support the best ministry practices in your own GCI context. I’m Cara Garrity, your host. And today we are beginning our miniseries to explore kingdom living and its elements as participatory, relational, missional, and transformational.

And today to help us do that, we have Reverend Dr. Walter Kim with us. Walter Kim is president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He earned his PhD at Harvard. Was chaplain at Yale and has served in diverse pastoral ministries. He’s on the Board of World Relief, Christianity Today, and Salvation Army, USA, he’s often sought out for theological and cultural commentary on issues facing the church and society.

And so, Walter, we thank you so much for joining us today to explore this really meaningful theme that we have for 2026, Kingdom Living.

[00:01:57] Walter: Cara, it’s a delight to be on this podcast with you.

[00:02:01] Cara: Yes. And so, I’m really excited for this theme and to explore these different elements of what kingdom living can look like.

For this miniseries, we’re really exploring what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, and what does it look like to live faithfully in Christ, to be formed in community, and engaged in a mission.

And so, our first element that we’re going to dive into is relational. What does it mean for us to live relationally? And so, that’s where I want to start. What does it mean for kingdom living to be relational, Walter?

[00:02:43] Walter: Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question and it’s a great place to start because, in fact, this is where Scripture starts. God sought to be in relationship, because in his very being God is relational as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the triune God. Internally in the great mystery of God’s own being there is built-in relationship.

And even so, it is this deep desire of God to create other, to create humanity. And I love the fact that in the opening chapter of Genesis and the description of the creation of humans in the image of God, it was very clear that when God created humans, he had community in mind, because he didn’t just say, God created the individual in the image of God, it said God created humanity, male and female, in the image of God.

There’re all sorts of things and implications that we could draw from that. But one thing that I think is very essential is that this notion that we need others, that we are intended for community is built into creation itself, is built in what it means to be even human — that we need other.

And when we think about all the metaphors of the church: family, building.

We have this notion of not just individuals who have been saved into the kingdom. We have been saved into a family. We have been saved into a building where each brick has a role. And that itself I think, is deeply informative to how we think about at the foundation of creation, at the foundation of the recreation of God’s humanity in the church is essentially this deep commitment to relationship — relationship with God, relationship between humans.

And so, whatever kingdom living entails, whatever it means to be disciples, it’s not just a bunch of individuals following Jesus individually. We have been embedded in a community, in a relationship.

[00:05:07] Cara: Yes. And I love how you really start with, Scripture starts there, from creation, from the foundations, that relationship is there and even in whom God is.

So, at the end of the day, we can say there, there is really no version of kingdom living that isn’t relational. There has to be relationship. And life itself really is relational because it has been designed that way. I think that is really critical for us to be thinking about that and learning how do we live that out with one another.

And one of the things that we want to focus on and dive into in this aspect of relational kingdom living is the aspect of God’s calling and gifting to us and, how do we hear and discover and respond to his call in our lives. And so, I’m wondering what does it look like for calling and gifting to be discovered within relationship, both with God and with others?

[00:06:15] Walter: Yeah, I think so many cases, while it may be helpful to take a personality test or some vocational training, in the end, most of us, we experience a set of blessings and opportunities that help us discern what God’s call might be upon our lives.

It may be in a community where we’ve led a small group and we begin to discover, wow, other people are telling me that I’m really good at asking questions or I’m really good at listening to people. And all of a sudden you begin to have this growing sense of perhaps the Lord is calling me in this way.

Or maybe you’ve been able to lead some friends of yours to Christ, and you begin to have the community affirm that you have a knack for explaining Jesus and such winsome and compelling ways, or it could be a speaking gift that was given, or you just show up in hospitality.

Yeah. Okay. There are places for figuring out our personalities and taking tests and maybe even a spiritual gifts inventory, but by and large we often experience our way into seeing and understanding our call through the ways that we have lived it out in relationships, in community, and in fact, this is what we see in scriptures. We see God’s people saying, “Paul, Barnabas, we see something in you,” and in period of prayer and discernment that the leaders of the church in Antioch gather together and lay hands and send them out.

This happened in community as they were undoubtedly serving and living out their giftedness and having God’s people affirm it and then bless them and send them out. So, I think both our personal experience and, once again, Scripture gives us this convergence of affirmation that so much of the discovery and discernment of our call comes through trying and living and doing and having God’s people affirm and shape and redirect us.

[00:08:36] Cara: Yeah. And I really appreciate both those elements of what we’re experiencing, but also what others are speaking into our lives and what they’re noticing and discerning with us and the dynamics of that, that there’s this dynamic in relationship where it’s not just an equation of, well, X plus Y equals Z and so this is what my calling or spiritual gifting is.

But that’s something that happens within that community and relationship. And so, I wonder too, how then can our response to God’s calling and gifting, maybe once we’ve discerned it, once our community has affirmed it in us, maybe commissioned us in that, how can our response be lived out relationally?

[00:09:28] Walter: Yeah. So much of the Christian life is the realization that you’re always an amateur. So, one thing that I would put out — this is after decades of walking with the Lord and serving the Lord in a variety of context — is you never graduate beyond the common basic lesson that God loves me, that my identity is rooted in Christ and not in my performance. That it is always about dependence.

Of course, grow in wisdom, grow in expertise and skill. But as we do so, there is simultaneously the temptation as we grow in expertise to trust our expertise. And to lose that simple dependence upon the Lord.

And so there are a couple of things that I would once again put out there for us to consider and that is, as we serve the Lord, that we need to continue to put ourselves in context of constant feedback, of being able to receive the affirmations and the critiques of God’s people.

Good thing David had Nathan in his life, that even way into his kingship, Nathan was able to speak truth and confrontation to someone who began so incredibly well — slaying Goliath, delivering God’s people from the Philistines, being the model king that Jesus would be named son of David. And yet later, after all this success, he became arrogant and entitled and fell into sin. And it required someone to speak a word of truth.

So, we always need to put ourselves in a posture of dependence upon the Lord, of remembering and fostering our first love, of recognizing we might grow in expertise, but we never graduate beyond dependence, and that we always need people in our lives who will speak truth to us, who will guide us, who will encourage us. We need Nathans to challenge us. We need Barnabases to bless us and encourage us, and we need the body of Christ to constantly be working out with us our mutual calling.

I really think it’s important for us, particularly in such an individualized context and time where we’re always trying to figure out what is my calling. My calling has no real value apart from its communal impact. Each of us, according to Corinthians, have been given a gift for the common good. So, it’s not so much that we’re, “I need to be true to myself and true to my calling,” it is, “you need to be true to the community into which that calling gets exercised.”

And so that I, once again, I think is a profound challenge for us to always be working things out collaboratively in community, even if some of our gifting is one that often gets applied in a personal context. Like, you may be a counselor and you think, oh, it’s the personal wisdom that I might have.

But many, those in the counseling field, recognize they need those moments where they’re talking to colleagues and working out, “Give me some wisdom here. What can I be learning?” So, I would wish to affirm that we constantly need each other in the living out of our calling. This is not the individual saying, “I got my calling. I’m good. I’m just going to go do my thing for Jesus.” Your thing for Jesus comes in the context of community.

[00:13:40] Cara: There’s so much richness in what you just shared. I really appreciate that. A couple things that I want to pull out that really spoke to me: you can grow in expertise but not out of dependence. I think that that’s huge. What I want to get from that is we can’t exist and use our calling out of relationship in kind of any way, right? Because we don’t come out of dependence on God. And so, what does it mean to use our callings and our giftings outside of relationship with God? Is there even a reality in which that exists? Not really. But to be aware of that and to remember that I think is really incredible reminder.

And then I think also you’re speaking maybe to that temptation to live individually, that reminder that our giftings aren’t for us, at the end of the day, that we need to be living them out, using them in the context of community, because it’s not just well, like me in my little corner using my … what uses that. I think that’s a really timely and helpful reminder.

[00:15:02] Walter: Yeah. Cara, I think there are a couple of things. Just even your reflecting back just reaffirms to me the challenge that we often think and confront when we confront the issue of calling in our particular day and age, and one is this notion that our calling is primarily about our fulfillment.

I have this need to use gifts. I have this desire to be fulfilled in ministry, and you look at Scripture and you think, of course, God is concerned with your happiness and fulfillment, but that’s actually very, very much not how calling is described, right? Paul looks at his calling: go to 2 Corinthians.

Instead, 1 Corinthians and he has this laundry list of three occasions: I’ve been persecuted, I’ve been shipwrecked. There’s sleepless nights. I have the burden of the church constantly upon me. And one time I was stoned and left the city and went back into the city.

There wasn’t so much about, “I’m called to be apostle because it’s so deeply satisfying and I find meaning in this and fulfillment, and this is why I’m an apostle.” It’s almost, “I am, I’m an apostle, and I actually don’t know how humanly fulfilling it actually is, other than deeply fulfilling in knowing that I serve the purposes of God, deeply fulfilling that even in the sacrifice there is an exceedingly great weight of glory that awaits for me, that makes all the afflictions of this lifetime feel light and momentary, and the opportunity to enter into a deeper understanding of the love of God and the deep satisfaction of the community of God.”

It’s like when we sacrifice deeply for those in our church, in our communities, when we’ve walked long roads of suffering with someone with a debilitating illness. I’m just going to get really personal here. We cared for my brother most of his adult life, 30 years. He lived with us in our family or lived near to us. You had a variety of challenges. He passed away not too long ago and I often thought about in this period of reflection, “What was the point of that? All those years?”

The point of it was the gift of walking with someone. It’s probably not something that most people will know about, though I’m mentioning it now, but I would look back and say, “Oh yeah, there’s my public ministry. There’re the things that people will know about and then there’s this long ministry, deeply personal of just loving it and caring for someone imperfectly.

But it was as much a call upon my life as anything public that I’ve ever done. And in the end to know that he went to be with the Lord and died in faith and that I had sensed deeply from the Lord, “Your race with him is finished. Thank you. Well done.” Again, not perfectly. Cara, I think about that and the kind of way in which we are often called to just faithfully walk with the Lord and in the end, was it deeply fulfilling?

Absolutely. But fulfilling in a way that was so surprising and unexpected. And so, to recognize that our call can be one that in our moment may not feel fulfilling at all except for fulfilling the purposes of God, except for walking with someone who might drive us nuts. But years, decades later, discovering the joy of having been invited to care or love or walk with you — you fill in the blank. And that’s the kind of slow burn ministry that is often not the attractive ministry. We want the bright flash. And yet the Lord will often make sure that even those of us who might have bright, flashy moments in our ministry, we’ll be called to be faithful in the slow burn of someone in our life, and that might be the greater test of our faithfulness in ministry.

[00:20:13] Cara: Walter, first I want to thank you for sharing that. That’s a beautiful testament to the ways God has called you and worked in and through and around you and your family in your life. So, thank you for sharing that personal story with us.

We’re blessed by that. And I think even opening that awareness to us, that calling really is bringing us into the fulfillment of God’s purposes and not just our own kind of sense of personal satisfaction, I think is huge. Because in that moment, maybe it doesn’t feel great, right?

But when we talk about calling, it’s not necessarily what do we want to do? What’s that big superhero ministry moment? But how are we being invited into just playing a part in God’s overall purposes. And sometimes playing that small part in what God is doing around us is costly, is the knit and grit, the good, bad, and the ugly.

And I think that is really important, especially in our context, for us personally and corporately, to wrestle with that because I think we like the good and the flashy a lot more than the bad and the ugly, right? We want to feel very good about our calling. We got called to this really great glamorous thing, or we want to latch onto this one task or this one ministry as a sense of calling, not necessarily as a way of being or walking with somebody. And so, I really appreciate that description of calling that you’ve offered to us as well. Thank you.

[00:22:07] Walter: Yeah. My first assignment you mentioned I was a campus minister, worked as a chaplain at Yale, and my director, this was fresh out of college, my first ministry assignment, and one of my earliest conversations with the director is, let me give you some perspective on ministry.

Ministry is people. People are messy. Therefore, ministry will be messy.

[00:22:35] Cara: Yes.

[00:22:35] Walter: That was like the first lesson of ministry showing up on campus. So eager to share my faith and love students and being told by my director, ministry is people, people are messy. Therefore, ministry is going to be messy. And I think life has proven that to be very, very true.

[00:22:58] Cara: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, what wise ways to start your ministry? And I think, as we’ve been discussing, you’ve shared a lot of really meaningful insights into why and how relationships are at the center of kingdom living and the riches and the beauty of that.

And so, I’m wondering maybe what are some practices or rhythms for us in our church communities and neighborhoods? What can we do to help us nurture that relational nature of kingdom living in our own contexts?

[00:23:40] Walter: Yeah. When Jesus sent people out, he sent them out in twos. When he was in the Garden of Gethsemane — this is the Son of God, right? He’s in the Garden of Gethsemane and he wants Peter, James, and John to be with him, to be praying with him — the intimacy of that. Again, Paul, Barnabas went out together and if you look at a lot of Paul’s letters, they were written with Silas or some other, someone else as well.

So, all throughout Scripture we get this deep sense that folks were sent in ministry teams. They were sent in context in which they were to share the joys and the sorrows of ministry with others. One practical thing is, “Who can I be doing this with?” Always asking the question. “Who, can I bring along as I am trying this?”

And then also to be thinking, again, as Paul often did, “Who are the people that I’m seeking to mentor?” The admonition to Timothy of finding faithful people who you would be able to teach and then they would be able to teach others as well. So, thinking about, “Who are folks that you could be building into?” And then of course, “Who are the folks that you can be learning from?”

And so, constantly asking those questions, just practically, “As I do this particular thing who can I be bringing along?” And it could be actually doing something together, co-leading something, but it also could be as simple as, “I’m working on this project and rather than just fulfilling this project, but on my own, just say, I want to pass this by you. Can you give me some advice?”

And to constantly be asking that, even if it’s like preparing your own sermon. Do we take the time to say before we actually get up on a Sunday to preach? “Did I vet this stuff with someone else? Did I invite someone else to gimme some feedback in my dialoguing with how this passage is working itself out?”

One is to constantly be asking, “Who can I bring along? Who could I be building into? Who can I be learning from?” And to have that corporate relational mentality with the type of ministry that I’m pursuing.

[00:26:17] Cara: Thank you. That’s a really practical place for us to … practical and I think really impactful place for us to really be intentional about bringing in these rhythms and practice of being relational in the ways that we live out the kingdom in our communities. So, I appreciate that. And I’m wondering, as we get ready to close up this first mini episode of our series: Any final words that you have for our listeners about the relational component of kingdom living?

[00:26:56] Walter: Yeah. I think, perhaps there’s no better way to end than Jesus’ prayer in John 17. What was on Jesus’ mind and heart the night before he was betrayed and he was going to die? You would think whatever’s of utmost importance. I’m going to emphasize that he thinks back to the years of ministry.

“This is my final chance to solidify a final lesson before I’m crucified.” So, the last earthly night with his disciples. And what does he do? He prays. He prays for them to be one, even as he’s one with the Father, that they would be one, so that the world would know. So, I think to recognize that this relational aspect of kingdom living is so important, that it was Jesus’ final thought and final prayer for us before he was crucified.

And to recognize that by putting in Scripture and by knowing that Jesus even now is constantly making intercession on our behalf. What is he praying? My guess is that he’s still praying John 17 for us. And so, to recognize that it’s not only important, but we actually have Jesus praying for us to live kingdom lives that are relational.

[00:28:42] Cara: Thank you. We love to have our guests close our episodes out with a word of prayer for our leaders, our members, our church neighbors. And so, would you be willing to say a word of prayer over our listeners and their people?

[00:29:07] Walter: Yeah, absolutely.

Heavenly Father, thank you that you yourself sent your beloved Son, and even now have given us fellowship with the Spirit, three in one. We praise you that you are relationship in being. And we recognize that our call is the call into this life of relationship. Your prayer was that we would be one with you, with one another, and that through that loving community give witness to the world of who Jesus is and the eternal life given to us in him. We pray that whatever the situation we may find ourselves in, whatever messiness of relationship that we may find ourselves in, that we trust your call upon our life to enter into it and fulfill your purposes through it. In the beautiful name of Jesus, we pray. Amen.

[00:30:15] Cara: Amen. Thank you.

And until next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you; email us info@gci.org. And we hope to see you at the 2026 Denominational Celebration in Texas from July 23 – July 26, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

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Program Transcript

Kingdom Living (Part 1): Relational w/ Walter Kim

And so, Walter, we thank you so much for joining us today to explore this really meaningful theme that we have for 2026, Kingdom Living.

[00:01:57] Walter: Cara, it’s a delight to be on this podcast with you.

[00:02:01] Cara: Yes. And so, I’m really excited for this theme and to explore these different elements of what kingdom living can look like.

And when we think about all the metaphors of the church: family, building.

[00:05:07] Cara: Yes. And I love how you really start with, Scripture starts there, from creation, from the foundations, that relationship is there and even in whom God is.

Ministry is people. People are messy. Therefore, ministry will be messy.

[00:22:35] Cara: Yes.

[00:29:07] Walter: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:15] Cara: Amen. Thank you.

Program Transcript

Kingdom Living (Part 1): Relational w/ Walter Kim Cara: In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of kingdom living. In the first half of the year, we're excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God's kingdom in today's world: faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. GC Podcast is created to support the best ministry practices in your own GCI context. I'm Cara Garrity, your host. And today we are beginning our miniseries to explore kingdom living and its elements as participatory, relational, missional, and transformational. And today to help us do that, we have Reverend Dr. Walter Kim with us. Walter Kim is president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He earned his PhD at Harvard. Was chaplain at Yale and has served in diverse pastoral ministries. He's on the Board of World Relief, Christianity Today, and Salvation Army, USA, he's often sought out for theological and cultural commentary on issues facing the church and society. And so, Walter, we thank you so much for joining us today to explore this really meaningful theme that we have for 2026, Kingdom Living. [00:01:57] Walter: Cara, it's a delight to be on this podcast with you. [00:02:01] Cara: Yes. And so, I'm really excited for this theme and to explore these different elements of what kingdom living can look like. For this miniseries, we're really exploring what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today's world, and what does it look like to live faithfully in Christ, to be formed in community, and engaged in a mission. And so, our first element that we're going to dive into is relational. What does it mean for us to live relationally? And so, that's where I want to start. What does it mean for kingdom living to be relational, Walter? [00:02:43] Walter: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question and it's a great place to start because, in fact, this is where Scripture starts. God sought to be in relationship, because in his very being God is relational as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the triune God. Internally in the great mystery of God's own being there is built-in relationship. And even so, it is this deep desire of God to create other, to create humanity. And I love the fact that in the opening chapter of Genesis and the description of the creation of humans in the image of God, it was very clear that when God created humans, he had community in mind, because he didn't just say, God created the individual in the image of God, it said God created humanity, male and female, in the image of God. There’re all sorts of things and implications that we could draw from that. But one thing that I think is very essential is that this notion that we need others, that we are intended for community is built into creation itself, is built in what it means to be even human — that we need other. And when we think about all the metaphors of the church: family, building. We have this notion of not just individuals who have been saved into the kingdom. We have been saved into a family. We have been saved into a building where each brick has a role. And that itself I think, is deeply informative to how we think about at the foundation of creation, at the foundation of the recreation of God's humanity in the church is essentially this deep commitment to relationship — relationship with God, relationship between humans. And so, whatever kingdom living entails, whatever it means to be disciples, it's not just a bunch of individuals following Jesus individually. We have been embedded in a community, in a relationship. [00:05:07] Cara: Yes. And I love how you really start with, Scripture starts there, from creation, from the foundations, that relationship is there and even in whom God is. So, at the end of the day, we can say there, there is really no version of kingdom living that isn't relational. There has to be relationship. And life itself really is relational because it has been designed that way. I think that is really critical for us to be thinking about that and learning how do we live that out with one another. And one of the things that we want to focus on and dive into in this aspect of relational kingdom living is the aspect of God's calling and gifting to us and, how do we hear and discover and respond to his call in our lives. And so, I'm wondering what does it look like for calling and gifting to be discovered within relationship, both with God and with others? [00:06:15] Walter: Yeah, I think so many cases, while it may be helpful to take a personality test or some vocational training, in the end, most of us, we experience a set of blessings and opportunities that help us discern what God's call might be upon our lives. It may be in a community where we've led a small group and we begin to discover, wow, other people are telling me that I'm really good at asking questions or I'm really good at listening to people. And all of a sudden you begin to have this growing sense of perhaps the Lord is calling me in this way. Or maybe you've been able to lead some friends of yours to Christ, and you begin to have the community affirm that you have a knack for explaining Jesus and such winsome and compelling ways, or it could be a speaking gift that was given, or you just show up in hospitality. Yeah. Okay. There are places for figuring out our personalities and taking tests and maybe even a spiritual gifts inventory, but by and large we often experience our way into seeing and understanding our call through the ways that we have lived it out in relationships, in community, and in fact, this is what we see in scriptures. We see God's people saying, “Paul, Barnabas, we see something in you,” and in period of prayer and discernment that the leaders of the church in Antioch gather together and lay hands and send them out. This happened in community as they were undoubtedly serving and living out their giftedness and having God's people affirm it and then bless them and send them out. So, I think both our personal experience and, once again, Scripture gives us this convergence of affirmation that so much of the discovery and discernment of our call comes through trying and living and doing and having God's people affirm and shape and redirect us. [00:08:36] Cara: Yeah. And I really appreciate both those elements of what we're experiencing, but also what others are speaking into our lives and what they're noticing and discerning with us and the dynamics of that, that there's this dynamic in relationship where it's not just an equation of, well, X plus Y equals Z and so this is what my calling or spiritual gifting is. But that's something that happens within that community and relationship. And so, I wonder too, how then can our response to God's calling and gifting, maybe once we've discerned it, once our community has affirmed it in us, maybe commissioned us in that, how can our response be lived out relationally? [00:09:28] Walter: Yeah. So much of the Christian life is the realization that you're always an amateur. So, one thing that I would put out — this is after decades of walking with the Lord and serving the Lord in a variety of context — is you never graduate beyond the common basic lesson that God loves me, that my identity is rooted in Christ and not in my performance. That it is always about dependence. Of course, grow in wisdom, grow in expertise and skill. But as we do so, there is simultaneously the temptation as we grow in expertise to trust our expertise. And to lose that simple dependence upon the Lord. And so there are a couple of things that I would once again put out there for us to consider and that is, as we serve the Lord, that we need to continue to put ourselves in context of constant feedback, of being able to receive the affirmations and the critiques of God's people. Good thing David had Nathan in his life, that even way into his kingship, Nathan was able to speak truth and confrontation to someone who began so incredibly well — slaying Goliath, delivering God's people from the Philistines, being the model king that Jesus would be named son of David. And yet later, after all this success, he became arrogant and entitled and fell into sin. And it required someone to speak a word of truth. So, we always need to put ourselves in a posture of dependence upon the Lord, of remembering and fostering our first love, of recognizing we might grow in expertise, but we never graduate beyond dependence, and that we always need people in our lives who will speak truth to us, who will guide us, who will encourage us. We need Nathans to challenge us. We need Barnabases to bless us and encourage us, and we need the body of Christ to constantly be working out with us our mutual calling. I really think it's important for us, particularly in such an individualized context and time where we're always trying to figure out what is my calling. My calling has no real value apart from its communal impact. Each of us, according to Corinthians, have been given a gift for the common good. So, it's not so much that we're, “I need to be true to myself and true to my calling,” it is, “you need to be true to the community into which that calling gets exercised.” And so that I, once again, I think is a profound challenge for us to always be working things out collaboratively in community, even if some of our gifting is one that often gets applied in a personal context. Like, you may be a counselor and you think, oh, it's the personal wisdom that I might have. But many, those in the counseling field, recognize they need those moments where they're talking to colleagues and working out, “Give me some wisdom here. What can I be learning?” So, I would wish to affirm that we constantly need each other in the living out of our calling. This is not the individual saying, “I got my calling. I'm good. I'm just going to go do my thing for Jesus.” Your thing for Jesus comes in the context of community. [00:13:40] Cara: There's so much richness in what you just shared. I really appreciate that. A couple things that I want to pull out that really spoke to me: you can grow in expertise but not out of dependence. I think that that's huge. What I want to get from that is we can't exist and use our calling out of relationship in kind of any way, right? Because we don't come out of dependence on God. And so, what does it mean to use our callings and our giftings outside of relationship with God? Is there even a reality in which that exists? Not really. But to be aware of that and to remember that I think is really incredible reminder. And then I think also you're speaking maybe to that temptation to live individually, that reminder that our giftings aren't for us, at the end of the day, that we need to be living them out, using them in the context of community, because it's not just well, like me in my little corner using my … what uses that. I think that's a really timely and helpful reminder. [00:15:02] Walter: Yeah. Cara, I think there are a couple of things. Just even your reflecting back just reaffirms to me the challenge that we often think and confront when we confront the issue of calling in our particular day and age, and one is this notion that our calling is primarily about our fulfillment. I have this need to use gifts. I have this desire to be fulfilled in ministry, and you look at Scripture and you think, of course, God is concerned with your happiness and fulfillment, but that's actually very, very much not how calling is described, right? Paul looks at his calling: go to 2 Corinthians. Instead, 1 Corinthians and he has this laundry list of three occasions: I've been persecuted, I've been shipwrecked. There's sleepless nights. I have the burden of the church constantly upon me. And one time I was stoned and left the city and went back into the city. There wasn't so much about, “I'm called to be apostle because it's so deeply satisfying and I find meaning in this and fulfillment, and this is why I'm an apostle.” It's almost, “I am, I'm an apostle, and I actually don't know how humanly fulfilling it actually is, other than deeply fulfilling in knowing that I serve the purposes of God, deeply fulfilling that even in the sacrifice there is an exceedingly great weight of glory that awaits for me, that makes all the afflictions of this lifetime feel light and momentary, and the opportunity to enter into a deeper understanding of the love of God and the deep satisfaction of the community of God.” It's like when we sacrifice deeply for those in our church, in our communities, when we've walked long roads of suffering with someone with a debilitating illness. I'm just going to get really personal here. We cared for my brother most of his adult life, 30 years. He lived with us in our family or lived near to us. You had a variety of challenges. He passed away not too long ago and I often thought about in this period of reflection, “What was the point of that? All those years?” The point of it was the gift of walking with someone. It’s probably not something that most people will know about, though I'm mentioning it now, but I would look back and say, “Oh yeah, there's my public ministry. There’re the things that people will know about and then there's this long ministry, deeply personal of just loving it and caring for someone imperfectly. But it was as much a call upon my life as anything public that I've ever done. And in the end to know that he went to be with the Lord and died in faith and that I had sensed deeply from the Lord, “Your race with him is finished. Thank you. Well done.” Again, not perfectly. Cara, I think about that and the kind of way in which we are often called to just faithfully walk with the Lord and in the end, was it deeply fulfilling? Absolutely. But fulfilling in a way that was so surprising and unexpected. And so, to recognize that our call can be one that in our moment may not feel fulfilling at all except for fulfilling the purposes of God, except for walking with someone who might drive us nuts. But years, decades later, discovering the joy of having been invited to care or love or walk with you — you fill in the blank. And that's the kind of slow burn ministry that is often not the attractive ministry. We want the bright flash. And yet the Lord will often make sure that even those of us who might have bright, flashy moments in our ministry, we'll be called to be faithful in the slow burn of someone in our life, and that might be the greater test of our faithfulness in ministry. [00:20:13] Cara: Walter, first I want to thank you for sharing that. That's a beautiful testament to the ways God has called you and worked in and through and around you and your family in your life. So, thank you for sharing that personal story with us. We're blessed by that. And I think even opening that awareness to us, that calling really is bringing us into the fulfillment of God's purposes and not just our own kind of sense of personal satisfaction, I think is huge. Because in that moment, maybe it doesn't feel great, right? But when we talk about calling, it's not necessarily what do we want to do? What's that big superhero ministry moment? But how are we being invited into just playing a part in God's overall purposes. And sometimes playing that small part in what God is doing around us is costly, is the knit and grit, the good, bad, and the ugly. And I think that is really important, especially in our context, for us personally and corporately, to wrestle with that because I think we like the good and the flashy a lot more than the bad and the ugly, right? We want to feel very good about our calling. We got called to this really great glamorous thing, or we want to latch onto this one task or this one ministry as a sense of calling, not necessarily as a way of being or walking with somebody. And so, I really appreciate that description of calling that you've offered to us as well. Thank you. [00:22:07] Walter: Yeah. My first assignment you mentioned I was a campus minister, worked as a chaplain at Yale, and my director, this was fresh out of college, my first ministry assignment, and one of my earliest conversations with the director is, let me give you some perspective on ministry. Ministry is people. People are messy. Therefore, ministry will be messy. [00:22:35] Cara: Yes. [00:22:35] Walter: That was like the first lesson of ministry showing up on campus. So eager to share my faith and love students and being told by my director, ministry is people, people are messy. Therefore, ministry is going to be messy. And I think life has proven that to be very, very true. [00:22:58] Cara: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, what wise ways to start your ministry? And I think, as we've been discussing, you've shared a lot of really meaningful insights into why and how relationships are at the center of kingdom living and the riches and the beauty of that. And so, I'm wondering maybe what are some practices or rhythms for us in our church communities and neighborhoods? What can we do to help us nurture that relational nature of kingdom living in our own contexts? [00:23:40] Walter: Yeah. When Jesus sent people out, he sent them out in twos. When he was in the Garden of Gethsemane — this is the Son of God, right? He's in the Garden of Gethsemane and he wants Peter, James, and John to be with him, to be praying with him — the intimacy of that. Again, Paul, Barnabas went out together and if you look at a lot of Paul's letters, they were written with Silas or some other, someone else as well. So, all throughout Scripture we get this deep sense that folks were sent in ministry teams. They were sent in context in which they were to share the joys and the sorrows of ministry with others. One practical thing is, “Who can I be doing this with?” Always asking the question. “Who, can I bring along as I am trying this?” And then also to be thinking, again, as Paul often did, “Who are the people that I'm seeking to mentor?” The admonition to Timothy of finding faithful people who you would be able to teach and then they would be able to teach others as well. So, thinking about, “Who are folks that you could be building into?” And then of course, “Who are the folks that you can be learning from?” And so, constantly asking those questions, just practically, “As I do this particular thing who can I be bringing along?” And it could be actually doing something together, co-leading something, but it also could be as simple as, “I'm working on this project and rather than just fulfilling this project, but on my own, just say, I want to pass this by you. Can you give me some advice?” And to constantly be asking that, even if it's like preparing your own sermon. Do we take the time to say before we actually get up on a Sunday to preach? “Did I vet this stuff with someone else? Did I invite someone else to gimme some feedback in my dialoguing with how this passage is working itself out?” One is to constantly be asking, “Who can I bring along? Who could I be building into? Who can I be learning from?” And to have that corporate relational mentality with the type of ministry that I'm pursuing. [00:26:17] Cara: Thank you. That's a really practical place for us to … practical and I think really impactful place for us to really be intentional about bringing in these rhythms and practice of being relational in the ways that we live out the kingdom in our communities. So, I appreciate that. And I'm wondering, as we get ready to close up this first mini episode of our series: Any final words that you have for our listeners about the relational component of kingdom living? [00:26:56] Walter: Yeah. I think, perhaps there's no better way to end than Jesus' prayer in John 17. What was on Jesus' mind and heart the night before he was betrayed and he was going to die? You would think whatever's of utmost importance. I'm going to emphasize that he thinks back to the years of ministry. “This is my final chance to solidify a final lesson before I'm crucified.” So, the last earthly night with his disciples. And what does he do? He prays. He prays for them to be one, even as he's one with the Father, that they would be one, so that the world would know. So, I think to recognize that this relational aspect of kingdom living is so important, that it was Jesus' final thought and final prayer for us before he was crucified. And to recognize that by putting in Scripture and by knowing that Jesus even now is constantly making intercession on our behalf. What is he praying? My guess is that he's still praying John 17 for us. And so, to recognize that it's not only important, but we actually have Jesus praying for us to live kingdom lives that are relational. [00:28:42] Cara: Thank you. We love to have our guests close our episodes out with a word of prayer for our leaders, our members, our church neighbors. And so, would you be willing to say a word of prayer over our listeners and their people? [00:29:07] Walter: Yeah, absolutely. Heavenly Father, thank you that you yourself sent your beloved Son, and even now have given us fellowship with the Spirit, three in one. We praise you that you are relationship in being. And we recognize that our call is the call into this life of relationship. Your prayer was that we would be one with you, with one another, and that through that loving community give witness to the world of who Jesus is and the eternal life given to us in him. We pray that whatever the situation we may find ourselves in, whatever messiness of relationship that we may find ourselves in, that we trust your call upon our life to enter into it and fulfill your purposes through it. In the beautiful name of Jesus, we pray. Amen. [00:30:15] Cara: Amen. Thank you.