The host of Gospel Reverb, Anthony Mullins, welcomes Dr. Cory Rice to unpack the August 2026 RCL Pericopes. Cory is the Teaching Pastor and part of the counseling team at Hill City Church in southern Indiana. He is also Associate Professor of Counseling and Coaching at Global Grace Seminary. He is the co-host of the popular podcast 2 Pastors and a Mic. He is the author of several books including Jailbreak: Escaping Religion Discovering Sonship Living Free.Cory Rice—Year A Proper 13–17
Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.
Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christocentric and Trinitarian view.
I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Cory Rice. Cory is the teaching pastor and part of the counseling team at Hill City Church in southern Indiana. He’s also associate professor of counseling and coaching at Global Grace Seminary. He’s the co-host of a popular podcast called Two Pastors and a Mic, and he’s the author of several books, including his latest, What If I Told You? — a devotional that you can find on Amazon or wherever you get your books. And on top of that, Cory holds three master’s degrees and a doctorate in ministry. And I find myself asking, “What am I doing with my life?”
Cory: I know.
Anthony: Cory, thanks for being with us, and welcome to the pod. And since this is your first time here, we’d like to know a little bit about you, your story, and especially what has you experiencing delight these days.
[00:01:05] Cory: Man, what an intro. I am honored to be a part of this. Yeah, my name is Cory, teaching pastor at a church called Hill City. We have an incredible team. I work more in the counseling; throughout the weekdays, writer, podcast host myself. Man, my life goal is to help people believe they matter. So, that’s how … I’ve been asked that question a lot lately, so I’ve had to dial it in with a simple response. But that’s been my life mission for a while now. So, my work kind of lives at that intersection of theology, emotional health, and human wholeness. A huge part of my own story, being a pastor’s kid, has been unlearning fear-based religion and rediscovering the goodness of God through even what you already said, a Christ-centered lens, Christocentric and Trinitarian.
And so, what brings me the most delight in this season is probably watching people breathe again spiritually, watching people realize that they’re not trying to earn their union with God, but awaken to the union that was already accomplished because of Christ.
And we’ve had a lot of people recently come be a part of our church that have either a lot of church hurt or been hurt by the church or hate church, and I’m like, “Man, this is the church for you for sure.” and so that’s been really a fun experience for us.
And I am very educated on one platform. I’ve had to unlearn a great deal of that. And so, a lot of our pushback that we hear, and we hear a lot of it, I’m like, “Man I used to be on that side of the fence,” and so I get it. So, it is my honor to be here with you. Thank you for having me on. I’m excited.
[00:02:47] Anthony: Of course. And that intersection you talked about of wellness and well-being. I’ve noticed that you do a lot of work with grief, at least based on the social media posts I’ve seen.
And I’m curious — what is the genesis of that work? What have you learned along the way that you could especially share with our listening audience? And how does it interact with theology? Just tell us a bit about this background of grief.
[00:03:19] Cory: Yeah. So, my counseling is, I do more in childhood traumas, but over the last eight months I’ve personally been dealing with grief. We lost one of our founding church members, super close family member and lost one of our best friends at 46, super unexpected, just two months ago.
[00:03:41] Anthony: I’m sorry.
[00:03:41] Cory: And so, I’ve been in this boat literally. And we’ve had some other issues that we’ve had to deal with in leadership that we’ve never had to deal with before in the previous 14 years that I’ve been on staff at this church and a part of making these decisions. And so, the last eight months really have been some of the worst moments of my life.
And so, I’m speaking to grief a lot, but that’s really because I’m feeling it, and this has been entirely new for me trying to navigate that. So, it’s one side to be on the side of the table helping people experience grief, and then I’ve gotten a totally different perspective now living through it.
But ultimately, to answer that question, is our theology does shape how we see God. And so, counseling ultimately helps uncover how we see ourselves, and therefore then coaching helps us move forward from there. And even in my own experience with the church and education around Christianity is, bad theology will create emotional fragmentation every time.
And if someone believes God is disappointed in them or distant from them or constantly evaluating them, that will affect how their nervous system, how their identity and relationships exist. And so, what we believe about God shapes what we believe about ourselves, and therefore then what we believe about other people.
And so, this works specifically even with grief and mental health and childhood traumas is counseling helps people become aware of their wounds, their fears, their triggers, the narratives that they carry. And then coaching will help people live intentionally from the truth instead of their nervous system or these survival instincts that we get.
And so, at the center of these things is ultimately Jesus. He’s the center of everything. And because Jesus reveals what humanity was always meant to look like in union in God, then it helps us thrive in the midst of heartbreak, in the midst of grief, in the midst of all the things that we experience as humans.
[00:05:48] Anthony: Yeah, that’s helpful. And sometimes I hear people say that we’re an over-therapeutic society. What would you say to someone who thinks that therapy, counseling is really an over-dependence on this particular discipline? Do you have anything to say?
[00:05:58] Cory: Yeah. You’re catching me off guard with that one, so I would just say that if someone tells me that, I’ll show you somebody who’s never done it.
Anthony: Oh, ah.
Cory: Mic drop. I was just counseling with a guy for the first time the other day, and he talked about how he was always told that this type of therapy is weak. He was told that you’re weak as a man to have to go to the counseling.
Anthony: Sure.
Cory: And it was after a two-hour session; I’m looking at him and obviously the weak people are people that think they don’t need this.
[00:06:48] Anthony: I think there’s something very true in what you just said and thanks be to God that we can have Jesus and a therapist, right? Have that counselor along the way.
Cory: Heck yeah. Yeah. We’re meant for connection, right?
Anthony: Absolutely.
Cory: That’s the whole idea. Yeah.
Anthony: Amen and amen.
Let’s do this. Let’s dive into the lectionary text that we have for this month. Our first pericope is Matthew 14:13–21. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 13 in Ordinary Time, August 2.
Now when Jesus heard this, he withdrew from there in a boat to a deserted place by himself. But when the crowds heard it, they followed him on foot from the towns. 14 When he went ashore, he saw a great crowd, and he had compassion for them and cured their sick. 15 When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a deserted place, and the hour is now late; send the crowds away so that they may go into the villages and buy food for themselves.” 16 Jesus said to them, “They need not go away; you give them something to eat.” 17 They replied, “We have nothing here but five loaves and two fish.” 18 And he said, “Bring them here to me.” 19 Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven and blessed and broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. 20 And all ate and were filled, and they took up what was left over of the broken pieces, twelve baskets full. 21 And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Cory, for the start, let’s think about God’s side of this. What does the Lord’s act of multiplying loaves and fish reveal about the nature of God, his divine provision, and especially as it reveals the relationship of God’s abundant grace?
[00:08:35] Cory: Man, just listen to that. So, I’ve got two thoughts on this, maybe three. But first, like, the miracle begins with honesty. I love, “we only have five loaves and two fish.” I like that part because that reveals the humanity in people, because I think like that. Even in my education I still deal with doubt and frustration.
“All right, God, I only have this situation.” So, I’m a big key on that only thing. Grace begins with honesty, and Jesus always meets people there. And so, the rhythm of the kingdom is found in Jesus’ response to that honesty is, “Yeah, bring them to me.” He doesn’t rebuke them for the fact that they only said “only.”
And so, what looks like lack in our hands often is what becomes abundance in his. I would say that the second one is this miracle reveals the nature of God, right? Not that he is transactional, but that he is self-giving love himself. The Trinity has always existed in abundance, generosity, overflow, you name it. So, this miracle to me is not God meeting a need reluctantly, but rather Jesus revealing what God is — always abundant, always compassionate, always generous. And that word compassion is very interesting in the Greek. One of my funniest stories of all time …
Anthony: Come on …
Cory: … has to do with the Greek word for compassion, which is where in the English it gets translated as your inner bowels. And five times in Scripture, it tells us that Jesus is moved with compassion, and all five times when it specifically says that, he does a miracle. And it’s almost like this uncontainable reaction that happens internally that flows outward expressively.
And so, I always talk about because I was a college athlete, and I got food poisoning on a road trip in Oklahoma once, and I got violently sick. And I woke up one evening covered in poo, and I realized it was my own. I had pooped my own bed, which is like wildly insane to talk about. I usually preach a really funny story around this, and then I tie it into — that’s compassion. If literally the Greek word is our inner bowels, something happens that we can’t contain it, it has to come out. And that’s the love of Christ, that’s the compassion of Christ, that’s the miracles of Christ. I know way too much information, but …
[00:10:53] Anthony: I did not have it on my bingo card for today that we were going to talk about poo, but here we are. And he couldn’t …
Cory: You never know.
Anthony: … he can’t contain it. Hallelujah. So, let’s talk about the flip side of that same coin.
God’s abundant grace — but he’s always kind of inviting us into what he’s doing. “Come along. Come and see.” So, what about human participation, especially with the imperative, “You give them something to eat”? What does that unveil? What does that tell us about God?
[00:11:22] Cory: Yeah. Honestly, I’m still learning this because there’s aspects of me that it’s, “All right, God, what are you doing?”
And I think that his response every time is, “Yeah, I’ve given you the power to do it. What are you doing about it?” And so, this miracle, to me it reveals, yes, human participation matters 100%, but participation is not pressure. Honestly, it’s the overflow of divine love and you have to understand your union to be able to overflow in divine love.
And so, the Church as a whole, big letter Church, it doesn’t create bread because Jesus is the Bread, but we do get to distribute what we’ve received. We’re not the source. We’re the resource. And so, sometimes we reduce ministry to information rather than nourishment. I kind of like to use that word, especially since Jesus calls himself the Bread of Life and I’m not just talking about literally.
You’ve got physically, emotionally, spiritually. The Church co-labors when we participate in the healing, in the reconciliation, in mercy, in justice, in compassion, in presence — you name it, right? And I think that our participation is massive. I know one of my spiritual fathers, Jamie Engelhardt, he always talks about when people talk about, “Oh, God doesn’t need you,” … Without us, he chooses to do nothing because he has no body except yours. So, if you want to see the manifestation of Christ on the earth, then the sons and daughters have to recognize their power.
[00:12:49] Anthony: Yeah, there is this tension, isn’t there, Cory, about …
[00:12:52] Cory: Oh, yeah …
[00:12:52] Anthony: … knowing God’s grace and yet participation. There’s such joy in it. God loves you regardless, but there’s just something that that eyes can only see when they see it, when they do and participate, right? Without it ever being pressure. It’s this … I can almost always see the Spirit going, “Come on. This is going to be so good. Let’s go.”
[00:13:15] Cory: Yeah. So much.
[00:13:15] Anthony: All right. Yeah, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 14:22–33. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 14 in Ordinary Time, which is August the 9. Please read it for us, Cory.
[00:13:30] Cory: Yeah.
Immediately he made the disciples get into a boat and go on ahead to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds. 23 And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24 but by this time the boat, battered by the waves, was far from the land, for the wind was against them. 25 And early in the morning he came walking toward them on the sea. 26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them and said, “Take heart, it is I; do not be afraid.” 28 Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” 29 He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat, started walking on the water, and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he noticed the strong wind, he became frightened, and, beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 When they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
[00:14:42] Anthony: Lord, save me. And what did Jesus do? He did it. Too often I’ve heard this text preached in such a way that Peter is the focus as maybe initially a hero and then a zero. What I want to know is what this text shows us about the goodness of the triune God revealed in Jesus Christ.
[00:15:01] Cory: Man, I kind of like that hero or zero perspective. I think we don’t hear enough about how this story, however, reveals a God who moves toward people in fear and doubt, not away from them every time. Even the story of Thomas, he shows up. We don’t oftentimes talk about that. I hate that Thomas is even known as Doubting Thomas because he asked a question that he wasn’t around for, and Jesus shows up, without shame. And isn’t that the gospel, how God continually moves towards people that have fear and doubt?
Praise God, because that’s me all the time.
Anthony: Yes, me.
Cory: And people are terrified. They are overwhelmed, battling whatever it is that they’re battling, and Jesus shows up in the middle of that, walking on the water. And so, the Gospel reveals, to me at least, a God who’s not afraid to enter our chaos, enter our suffering, enter our human weakness and human experience.
And so, what stands out to me the most is not Peter’s failure or success, which by the way I’m going to steal that hero or zero line because that’s pretty funny. But in my opinion, I think it’s Jesus’ steadiness in all of it. Like what you already said. He reached out his hand. And so, what is the Trinity like? Restorative in every possible way.
[00:16:20] Anthony: Let’s talk about Peter and the 11 left in the boat. Again, kind of going back to this topic of participation, or in some cases the lack thereof. But I’m struck by this, Cory, before you answer, that the 11 still witnessed this miracle …
[00:16:36] Cory: Right …
[00:16:36] Anthony: … and shared a testimony. And so, there’s a lot to be said about the participation in this. What do you have to say?
[00:16:45] Cory: So much. Truthfully, I think that Peter gets criticized totally unfairly here. Like you just said, there are 11 dudes witnessing this …
Anthony: That’s right.
Cory: … scared in the boat. Where are they? They’re scared in the boat. They didn’t do it. Peter at least walked on water. And what I tend to think on this specific instance is, even it can come off even how Jesus is confrontational with Peter when he says the phrase, “You of little faith,” or, “Why did you lack faith?” Whatever translation you’re looking at.
Honestly, that phrase isn’t a story of try harder, because there’s actually four times in the Scripture where Jesus says this phrase, and he never says it to anybody except his disciples, which is wild to think about. Actually this, “You of little faith,” if, when you look it up in Greek commentaries, they talk about this idea that this is a metaphoric phrase, and literally it gets translated as dull of hearing or disinterested in walking intimately or lacking confidence.
And so, in other words, it simply means, “Do you really not understand?” And I think it’s fair that they don’t understand, because even after the three years, Jesus is about to send them out on the Great Commission, and it says, I think it’s Matthew 27:17, I think. That’s one of my favorite verses where it says, “Some worshiped and some doubted.” This is after the resurrected Jesus, right?
Anthony: Yes. Yes.
Cory: And I think it just reveals the humanity. And when we ask questions like, “Didn’t the disciples, didn’t they understand?” we’re reading from a 21st century lens, and we have the whole story, right? And so, for them to not fully understand, I think is totally fair, because Peter sinks when he does something that we all do as humans, when we focus on what’s going on externally instead of the presence of God internally within us in Christ.
And then, when Jesus grabs him, I think it reveals another aspect of the Gospel. This security is not found in the strength of our grip on God. It’s found in God’s grip on us, which is eternal and everlasting, thank God.
[00:18:48] Anthony: Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. Peter often gets shamed, and I’m thinking, wait a second. In human history, only two people have ever walked on water that I know of. Peter’s one of them. Before he sank, he walked on water. There is something about joining Jesus in the unknown, and there was so much unknown to getting out of the boat. And it seems to me, Cory, that’s what participation often looks like. We, we only have so much vision to see around the bend. And if we could see more, where’s the need for trust, right?
[00:19:24] Cory: For sure.
[00:19:25] Anthony: Yeah. Our next passage is Matthew 15:21–28. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 15 in Ordinary Time, August 16.
Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, “Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 He answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that moment. And her daughter was healed from that moment.
Seems like there’s a lot going on there. “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David.” Isn’t this the cry of every human heart, whether they know it or not? Tell us more, Cory.
[00:20:49] Cory: Yeah. Man, I get lost in listening to you read. I think you should read the entire Bible so we can all listen to the ear candy that you have when you read the Scriptures. I love it. Man, of course, this is the cry of every human heart. I see this in daily counseling sessions. I see this in myself all the time. And whether people use religious language or not, humanity longs for wholeness, healing, belonging, mercy, you name it. So, I think every human is searching for the God that they already belong to.
What’s beautiful to me in this story is the woman refusing to disengage even when everything and everyone around her appears silent or resistant.
[00:21:26] Anthony: Preach.
[00:21:27] Cory: So, she already determined in her mind that something in Jesus is worth pursuing, and I love that. And so, to me, mercy is restorative compassion. It’s the heart of the Father always moving toward suffering people, which I think a lot of us can relate to that.
[00:21:46] Anthony: Can you talk a little bit more about pursuing as it relates to relationship? Because it seems like love always moves toward the other. We’re in Christ and he is in face-to-face relationship with the Father. He’s pursued us. He continues to pursue us by the Spirit. Anything else you’d like to say about just the act of God’s pursuit and us pursuing others in relationship?
[00:22:10] Cory: Yeah. I think it just comes to awakening to the reality that’s always a constant thing.
As you know, I grew up in a very religious setting, even went to a lot of schools where you learn only one lens to look at, and so I totally understand people in this approach of, “Can I even approach God? Is he distant? Is he disappointed?” Because he’s either distant or disappointed in most Christian circles.
And so, to catch the revelation that when God looks at you, that he’s actually smiling, is a wild experience. That was one of my first, in my first counseling sessions with my counselor, is getting this revelation that when God looks at me, he’s smiling, and that vision actually helped me understand his constant pursuit of me.
And so, it’s just been a continual awakening to the fact that God will always and has always been in love with me and pursuing me.
[00:23:11] Anthony: I hope you don’t mind. I’d like to follow up on that a little bit, because you’ve talked about, just in passing, your past being, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like in a legalistic environment, where having to unlearn that God is pure grace, God is pure love on God’s side. And many of our listeners around the world are coming from a very similar environment.
What would you … Maybe just tell us a little bit about how you came out of that kind of place of feeling like you had to maybe earn God’s approval, to win his love, to a place where now you’ve just been awakened to the goodness of God in Jesus. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[00:23:52] Cory: Yeah. So, I have an “aha” moment. It came, I actually got to listen to Brennan Manning live before he passed away in 2011, I think it was, at the Brooklyn Tabernacle is when he spoke. So again, that’s my undoing of legalism started really in 2012. Now, I always pushed against; even in university I was known for, “That doesn’t make sense.” But I didn’t have like …
[00:24:17] Anthony: Oh, that’s you.
[00:24:18] Cory: I didn’t have the language for it, like the union it was first grace. You talk about grace all day long until you need it, right? And then it was into eschatology, and then it was really into this union message.
And I heard a lot of people, but it was Brennan Manning. He said something, I’m going to butcher it. I’m sure you can find it online, but it’s something along the lines of, he asked this question of, “What’s the only question you’re going to hear when you meet your maker face to face?” And he, his perspective is, he believes that question is going to be God saying, “Did you really believe that I loved you?”
And then he followed that up with a statistic, a percentage, 90%, and wherever he gets this number from. But 90% of Christians, he believes, will answer that question with a heartbreaking, “No, I did not truly believe that you love me.” And it was that moment, I remember sitting there listening to that. Kind of at this point I already had two masters, right?
So, I thought my relationship with God was in concrete, and that took me on a season of revelation, of learning to unlearn everything I’ve always thought I’d known. And then I moved to the church I’m at in 2012, and I began relationships with so many different people that I now have different ministry experiences with.
But it was really my lead pastor, Channock, and I, and our friend Reggie at the time, the three of us — just being able to ask questions without shame is really what started that. And so, that 2011 “aha” moment, then for the next eight years not necessarily finding answers, but being free enough to be able to ask them without shame attached to the response, is really what began that journey of undoing everything that I thought I knew and believed about God.
And I’m still on this journey. I think we would … The sexy term now is deconstruction, right? We’ve been doing this since, for us in our setting, since 2012. We just didn’t have the language for it, right? But becoming aware not only of our union, but of a God that’s way better than we thought he was.
And so, I think I’m going to die on that hill, or at least I’m going to live on it, is when people say a whole lot of things about our ministry and about what we teach is I don’t think that I’m going to get to heaven and God’s never going to say, “You know what, Cory? You presented me a little too loving.” And so, if that’s the statement, then I think that we can go all, as far as we want with revealing a God who’s better than we think he is.
[00:26:45] Anthony: Yeah, and Karl Barth says as much. We can’t put any sort of limit on God’s lovingkindness. Thank you for sharing, and I’m so grateful for your journey. It’s very similar to a journey many of us have been on, and God is just so faithful. And we see it in this text.
And Cory, one of the things that grieves me is, we say we’re a Christocentric podcast. We focus on Jesus as much as we know how by the Spirit. But often when I hear texts preached, it’s human-centric. We go immediately, like in this text, we want to go immediately to this woman’s response, and it’s valuable. So, I want to or ask you this question: Did the Canaanite woman’s faith activate Jesus’ willingness to heal her daughter? I hear it read that way. Tell us about the theological implications one way or the other.
[00:27:43] Cory: Man, I got a couple things — don’t know if they’re going to be good. Personally, I don’t believe that her faith changed Jesus’s perspective or willing or unwillingness to heal her. I think Jesus reveals the willing heart of God all the time. Otherwise, we risk creating a picture where God must be persuaded into compassion, and it naturally flows from him, right?
So, I think her faith allowed her to participate in what was already present in Christ, because faith isn’t earning. It’s trustful participation. But I also think that there’s something culturally profound in this specific story, more than even the miracle. It’s that Matthew’s intentional highlight of a woman and a Canaanite, and someone that’s considered outside the covenant story, at least in Matthew’s gospel presentation.
And yet, Jesus, in this moment, reveals that the heart of God extends beyond ethnic and religious boundaries. And so, in other words, grace is not expanding because God changed or because our faith changed him. It’s expanding because humanity is awakening to how expansive and inclusive God has always been. It’s just we’re catching up to that revelation.
[00:28:54] Anthony: Yeah. Amen and amen. Let’s transition to our final pericope of the month. It’s Exodus 1:8 –2:10. It’s a long one. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 16 in Ordinary Time, August 23. Cory, we’d be grateful if you read it.
[00:29:14] Cory: Yeah. And I did notice that you gave me the long one. Here we go.
[00:29:17] Anthony: It was on purpose.
[00:29:19] Cory:
Now a new king arose over Egypt who did not know Joseph. 9 He said to his people, “Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with forced labor. They built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh. 12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread, so that the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites. 13 The Egyptians subjected the Israelites to hard servitude 14 and made their lives bitter with hard servitude in mortar and bricks and in every kind of field labor. They were ruthless in all the tasks that they imposed on them. 15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, 16 “When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the boys live. 18 So the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this and allowed the boys to live?” 19 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” 20 So God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and became very strong. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. 22 Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every son that is born to the Hebrews you shall throw into the Nile, but you shall let every daughter live.” 2:1 Now a man from the house of Levi went and married a Levite woman. 2 The woman conceived and bore a son, and when she saw that he was a fine baby, she hid him three months. 3 When she could hide him no longer she got a papyrus basket …
[00:31:38] Anthony: Yes, that’s an easy word, isn’t it?
[00:31:38] Cory:
… for him and plastered it with bitumen and pitch; she put the child in it and placed it among the reeds on the bank of the river. 4 His sister stood at a distance, to see what would happen to him. 5 The daughter of Pharaoh came down to bathe at the river, while her attendants walked beside the river. She saw the basket among the reeds and sent her maid to bring it. 6 When she opened it, she saw the child. He was crying, and she took pity on him. “This must be one of the Hebrews’ children,” she said. 7 Then his sister said to Pharaoh’s daughter, “Shall I go and get you a nurse from the Hebrew women to nurse the child for you?” 8 Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, “Yes.” So the girl went and called the child’s mother. 9 Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, “Take this child and nurse it for me, and I will give you your wages.” So the woman took the child and nursed it. 10 When the child grew up, she brought him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. She named him Moses] “because,” she said, “I drew him out of the water.”
[00:32:41] Anthony: How about we just take a break and allow you to breathe? And I want to tell our listening audience Cory earned his money here today. We’re not paying him anything, but he earned it by that text. Oh my. I did not realize it had all of that in it, so thank you for enduring it.
But there’s a lot happening here, and one of the things I’m just struck by, Cory, first of all, is that God allows human beings, his children, to tell his story. And I don’t know that we always do it justice, but we get to tell the story.
And this narrative is marked by oppression and fear under Pharaoh. So, how does God’s grace operate through the courageous and often overlooked actions of individuals, in this case, the Hebrew midwives? And what does this suggest about the ways God advances liberation in and through us? As you said earlier, we’re not the source, we’re the resource.
[00:33:47] Cory: Yeah.
[00:33:47] Anthony: How does he resource his liberation through people like these women?
[00:33:50] Cory: Man, If we’re looking at those three, the Hebrew midwives and Moses’ mother, Pharaoh’s daughter, those specific three, one of the most beautiful things to me about this story is that God’s liberating work often moves through ordinary people who choose courage over fear, specifically these women, even in a culture that didn’t honor them.
And so, the midwives resist empire. Moses’ mother protects life. Pharaoh’s daughter shows compassion across enemy lines. I think those three things are, like, the big takeaways that I have in this story, and liberation begins through those small acts of courage and compassion. And so, I think that matters because we often look for God only in dramatic moments, at least I often did.
When I was searching and that was … “Give me the dramatic moments,” the parting of the sea — all these — the raising of the dead, and all these things while overlooking quiet faithfulness, because the quiet faithfulness is super steady. It’s consistent. It’s not intense. It’s not super sexy.
And I think grace frequently moves loudest through hidden people making humanizing choices in dehumanizing systems. We see this all throughout Scripture. We also see this all throughout our current life right now. So, that’s what I would have to say on that.
[00:35:10] Anthony: Yeah. We, in Grace Communion International that hosts this podcast, we follow the Christian calendar, and we’re in a season called Ordinary Time, which is the longest season on the calendar. And I sometimes wonder if this season feels like, “you guys should’ve given me a better name. Ordinary sounds boring and mundane.”
But it does mean that ordered time where we learn the rhythms, the light rhythms of God and Jesus, that we, as we join him, we see him in the most common things, like you were mentioning, the everyday things.
To me, it’s one of the beauties of sharing the Eucharist or communion together. Like bread, it’s just so commonplace. Wine, you find it everywhere. But it is in the common acts of courage that we see the goodness of God manifest. And I think this season has a lot to teach us in that way, that it’s not in the ministry highlight reel. And I used to be wired in such a way, Cory.
Cory: Right.
Anthony: That’s what I wanted people to see, the highlight reel.
[00:36:15] Cory: Oh, yeah.
[00:36:16] Anthony: I’m sure I’m the only one that has dealt with that. But that’s facetiousness. I know we all do on some level.
Cory: Yeah.
Anthony: We’re trying to project. And this is why theology’s so important, that once I realize there is nothing to prove and nothing to protect in Christ, I can lay all those things down, accomplishments, all the accolades, and just be like, “Here I am, Lord. You know me.”
What else would this text have to teach us? If you were preaching this text to your congregation, what else would you say?
[00:36:49] Cory: Man, okay. I would I would focus on, and probably to speak to a lot of our listeners who have what we talked about earlier about coming out of legalism and whatnot, is oppressive systems, especially in church cultures, are always going to be driven by fear. And the kingdom of God obviously moves differently because it’s within, and it’s always revealing. Romans 14:7 or 17:14 is, it’s righteousness, peace, and joy. And I think, if you are holding on to any type of view of God or lens of God and it’s baked in any type of fear, then you know that’s not from the Spirit, because perfect love casts out all fear.
And I would ultimately say that lastly this story points to Christ even before his physical appearance because Christ is the true deliverer, who enters humanity’s oppression not to condemn humanity, but to liberate humanity. And I think if we can take anything from that story, that should be the story of our lives as we walk into people’s oppression and help liberate them because we are a resource of the source of Christ within us.
[00:38:13] Anthony: I’m going to take that line with me. He’s the source. We’re the resource. And thanks be to God that he allows us, and allows not even the right word, in the overflow of his love, he just desires to be with us. Isn’t this the story of the Old Testament with the people of Israel that just kept messing things up, murmuring, and frustrated, and complaining and he just continues to be with them because this is the God who just refuses to be God without us.
And so, we get to join him in what he’s doing. And in this season of Ordinary time, friends, I want to leave you with this quote from one of my favorite contemporary theologians. Her name is Julie Canlis, and she says, “All of life is spiritual: work, bearing children, hobbies, friendship, repairing gutters, commuting. This is our worship, the offering of our everyday stuff to God.” Amen and amen.
Cory, thanks for being with us. You are a joy. May God continue to bless you, your family, and your participation in his ministry. I want to thank our team behind the podcast that make it possible, and as is our tradition here in Gospel Reverb, we want to end with a word of prayer, and we’d be delighted if you’d pray for us.
[00:39:17] Cory: Yeah. I would love to. Before, before I jump into that, since I’m going close on prayer, I want to highlight that first conversation we had around Matthew 14 and Jesus multiplying the bread. I think the disciples were so rattled by prayer. They’re Jewish and they know how to pray, and this is one of the questions they asked Jesus on how to pray, because in a moment where he breaks bread and feeds 5,000 men, the only thing he said in prayer were thanks. And I think that’s a perfect way to close, in just a state of thankfulness.
And so, Jesus, we’re just thankful. I’m grateful for who you are, and I’m grateful that you continue to reveal your union. May people look within to find Christ instead of externally, because that’s where you are. And we love you; we thank you, and may your love continue to rule and reign in the lives of people as we love people the way that you have loved us. In Jesus’ name.
[00:40:22] Anthony: Amen.
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