Discipleship Pathways w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt.2

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we continue our miniseries on discipleship with our guest, Dr. Rev. Strawser, and we will be continuing our conversation on her book, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.

Welcome back, and so good to have you here today.

[00:01:15] Eun: Thanks so much, Cara. You’re probably my favorite, favorite podcast interviewer by far.

[00:01:22] Cara: That’s speaking words of life to me. Oh goodness. Thank you.

For the first episode in our miniseries, you shared a lot of really helpful and meaningful insights to us about the importance of discipleship and centering discipleship. As you move further into your book, you start talking about the development of a discipleship pathway.

And so, I’m wondering, for our listeners, how does a discipleship pathway help us to make discipleship central in the lives of our church communities compared to maybe … there’s a thousand different ways to get there. But what about a specific discipleship pathway helps us to make discipleship central?

[00:02:16] Eun: Yeah, I think that it probably in writing Centering Discipleship, the pathway piece was just to help and contribute to the Big C Church now. One further step to help all of us clarify discipleship. If the biggest need today in the church is there’s such a deficiency and lack of understanding, a clear thought, a clear contribution of why discipleship is at the periphery and not center to our churches and communities and what’s the next thing that could help all of us move the needle so that discipleship is more centered in our churches. If that’s the case, then I think a pathway, which is very different from a program, is the best chance at this next sort of step for us to gain that clarity.

Pathways are different from programs because it really does allow for, it’s more like a framework than it is a prescribed structure. Frameworks helps so that there’s a lot of flexibility around it. The best example of a programmatic or more structured thing is what Alcoholics Anonymous use, where every single AA groups or substance abuse groups use the same structure, the same order, the same program that lists there. And it works. It works for AA groups all around the world.

But for discipleship to be centered within our local churches, it really is that local piece. That’s the thing that highlights why discipleship pathways should be pathways or frameworks with a lot of flexibility because it’s different from a program. Not every single thing that is going to work for one community, let’s say in Western Ghana is going to work the same and have the same expectations of fruitfulness, let’s say in Seoul, South Korea.

I’ve worked with people in both of those settings. Discipleship pathways look very, very different. It’s not just because of there’s a language difference in things, but there’s also a cultural difference and hyper-localized cultural differences that we really should have a say in what our discipleship pathways should look like.

So, a pathway and not a program is really important first. It allows for that flexibility. It also allows it so that we already have an assumption —if we all have an assumption — that every single person who encounters Jesus will not only be a follower of Jesus, will be a disciple of Jesus, but they will also be a disciple maker also along with Jesus — if that’s happening, right? We’re making disciples and making disciple makers. If that’s a given assumption that we as leaders should all have, because the Great Commission was not given to just leaders, pastors, holier people, or people who know how to read the Bible really well or pray really effectively. No! The Great Commission was given to every single imitator of Christ, right?

If that’s a going assumption in our starting point, then a framework or a pathway allows it so that every single type, learning type, personality, a developmental level, even divergent, neurodivergent folks, right, and people with different disabilities and abilities — we’re saying that everybody should have a chance at both being discipled and being disciple makers.

So, a pathway allows for that kind of flexibility. … I think the hard work, but the good work for the leader and the leaders in a faith community to really put the work into that, where it’s local, it’s flexible, it’s accessible to everybody within their community, and with an expectation that folks can use this framework and this pathway, and they can go and make disciples also.

[00:06:16] Cara: Yes. And I really appreciate that piece, that it’s something that can be used so that we are making disciples who make disciples, right? There’s something replicable about this localized, contextualized discipleship pathway that continues to multiply. It doesn’t just end with itself, right?

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And you mentioned that local aspect and kind of that contextualization, which in Grace Communion International, we have local congregations all over the world in many different contexts like you mentioned. And so, contextualization of ministry practices is something that we really have to contend with a lot. What does a good ministry practice look like in very different contexts around the world? And you tackle this in your book as well about kind of universal models of discipleship, local models of discipleship, and a little bit of what does it look like to hold the two together?

And so, what advice would you give to a church leadership that is learning to integrate those universal and those local elements of discipleship?

[00:07:41] Eun: Yeah, no, that’s a great question, Kara. I think this is the part again … doing, constructing a discipleship pathway is hard work, but good work for the leader because you’re, you are trying to hold that tension together.

Without that tension, then this is again why a lot of assimilated practices happen, or an assumption that produces colonization happens within Christianity because we hold, we don’t know how to hold that tension of both. Universally, can we identify a Jesus follower all across the world? Yes. Yes, we can. But can we not constrain them to cultural practices, but really be respectful and kind and compassionate and allow the beautiful cultures where every different local culture looks different, right? How do we hold those two things in tandem?

I think this is why again a pathway is so helpful, because those maturity markers that we talked about last time, they’re probably the things that are telling us that they, that it, we can easily identify a mature disciple of Christ anywhere in the world because they all share the same kind of maturity markers, right?

The markers aren’t trying to constrain us or confine us structurally. The markers are trying to tell us, oh, what’s the portrait of a disciple of Christ that we are trying to move towards? So, for me and these four are the ones that I boiled it down to. There’s … you could read the book and there’s a lot of scriptural backing for it.

I also love these four because you can’t tease apart one thing or another. You can’t just choose to be mature in one thing and say, that’s what makes you a mature disciple of Jesus. You have to have an interaction with all four of these maturity markers.

So, the maturity markers are that every disciple, all across the world, that they all share these four things in common. They have a Christlike character, Christlike theology, Christlike wisdom, and Christlike missional living or sent-ness. I love that they are, all four, are distinct. These are things that disciples should be equipped in.

All four of these things, increase both a spiritual competence and a social competence as followers of Jesus. But again, all four things can’t be teased apart. You can’t just have a growing character of Jesus and say you’re a loving person but not be sent out to your neighbor. You know what I mean?

Cara: Yeah.

Eun: You can’t be a person who has Christlike theology, knows a lot of things about God, but also don’t know how to navigate the complexities of culture in the world around us and not be a wise person. You need all four things, and I think these are the four things that identify a mature disciple of Jesus.

So, that’s the part where you can hold that universal piece around discipleship — the localized part, the contextualized part that’s so needed so that we contend against empire, contend against a certain power dynamic, or what the cultural setting is within our local space. The way to contend against it is actually thinking about what are our discipleship core, essentials.

What are the essential pieces in our local place that we have to address, that we have to actively, intentionally have equipping for our people in so that we know clearly people are going to actually grow to be mature disciples, have Christlike character, Christlike theology with them in sent-ness.

So, the discipleship core essentials are probably different across all different kinds of churches. Usually, in churches when I’m working with them, you can … your starting point is probably, what are your core values, what’s in your vision statement or your mission statement — those kinds of things.

Like the easiest thing is love God, love others, right? Those are very, very, very simplified discipleship core essentials. And you’re saying we want every single disciple in our local context to be equipped in loving God and loving others. Let’s say, just using it.

FYI, Cara, that’s my least favorite discipleship essentials, because I think that it’s too simplified and people don’t know how to explain it, but we’ll just work with that for now. But I know that these discipleship core essentials are actually the thing to, for my people to be equipped in, by not thinking I have great content and it’s working.

I have to see it based on, are there mature disciples in our midst? Are there people who are growing and maturing in these maturity markers of Christlike character, theology, wisdom, and missional living? Are people less anxious? Do people do conflict resolution better? Are people knowing the names of their neighbors, and inviting them with them to do life together?

Are people actually growing in patience and it’s actually being challenged? Do people have more hospitality just like Jesus? Do people, in knowing and growing and knowing about God more, begin to have their loves and their decision-making shaped by knowing and knowing God more, right?

If these things aren’t happening in our midst, then I don’t know if discipleship is really intentionally being equipped in our people.

[00:13:28] Cara: Yes. And I really appreciate a couple of things that you’ve said. One that, that those four elements of the Christlike character, theology, wisdom, missional living — they can’t be isolated from one another. There’s kind of this holisticness to growth in maturity as a disciple, and that we’re looking for the fruits and the markers of that. Assess feels like a little too rigid, but kind of like assess, right? The essentials that we’ve identified and then the tools that we’re using to exercise and develop those essentials because it’s … and you use an analogy like this or an image like this in your book of it … does it matter what process you’re going through if the fruit that you’re looking for, isn’t there, in terms of, if you’re watering a tree or a plant, right? You could do all the quote unquote right things, but if it doesn’t bear the fruit that you’re looking for, like obviously something needs to change. Or we could just stay stubborn, right?

[00:14:54] Eun: Absolutely, Cara. I wish so much that I was a green thumb, but I do not. My entire family makes fun of me, because every potted plant or propagated plant … I’m so delighted because I’m like, this is the chance that I have! I can grow something! That’s what I’m say, but I just can’t, because I do the process wrong. For whatever reason, I over water certain plants. I don’t know. I don’t know anything about it, right? But I do know that my process is not working. My pathway is not working. The things that, then, are essential are not working because these plants keep withering and dying.

Cara: Yes.

Eun: And I think it’s okay for us as Christians to be able to say words like assessment, testing. We should test, it’s in the Bible, right? Even God says, “Test me. I’m okay. I can withstand that, right? I love you. This is the kind of relationship we have. Please test me. If you’re not sure. Test me.” So, if that’s a culture that’s already scripturally-based, why shouldn’t we?

We shouldn’t be afraid or embarrassed or ashamed to test ourselves. I want this thing to work. It’s really important to me that discipleship is central to the life of my church, because why? Because King Jesus being worshiped, meaning that every single follower of Jesus in my local context want to make decisions to reorient everything and every part of their life: decision-making, how they love, who they invite, who they think are insiders, outsiders, how they use their money, how they use their time, all that kind of stuff. That’s what worship means, right? So, discipleship is important because discipleship is ultimately saying that will Jesus followers actually put King Jesus at the center of their lives, at the center of their entire community?

I want that tested. That’s really important to me. So, why shouldn’t we have some assessments to say, is that really happening? Is King Jesus concretely, without a shadow of a doubt being worshiped with their whole lives, with the totality of their whole lives, meaning their characters are being transformed, their theology is being transformed, their wisdom is being sharpened, their missional living is being actually lived out.

If those four things aren’t happening, I want it tested within my local community because I want somebody to tell me concretely, if Jesus, King Jesus is being centered within my local context.

[00:17:25] Cara: Yes. No, that’s a good word, to not shy away from that testing, because are we taking seriously the thing that we’re looking for?

But I do, I really love that analogy with the plants, because I’m the same, I’ve been learning for years and it’s just, I use all the different processes and sometimes the same processes on different plants, and one plant will end up dead and the other thrives, and it’s just like … I think that’s so relevant to, are we committed to the processes, the things that we’re doing, the tools and things like that? Is that where our commitment lays, or like you said, is our commitment to Jesus and growing in his likeness.

And I think if that’s where commitment lies, then the other things can be changed in order to bear the fruit of the thing that we’re actually committed to. I’m actually committed to this plant being alive, so I can move it to a different window so that it doesn’t die. So, I’m wondering just as we’re talking about, like you said, it’s a hard and really important work to put together a discipleship pathway. What would your kind of word of encouragement be to a church leadership as they take their first step in doing this good work?

[00:18:57] Eun: Yeah, I think two things for the pastors who are leading in an inherited church or an established church — my biggest advice is that your expectation for timing is not going to be the same as a church plant. So, when I do work with inherited church churches and church leaders, I just tell them probably it’s going take about three years — three years to begin to center discipleship more. And you can plan those things out, right?

You have so much more say about structures and restructuring and taking an inventory of where there is an environment where this would work, all those kinds of stuff. Those are really good ground-tooling work. Because number two is your job. Your primary job in your leadership role is actually to not just preach or not just fill seats in services, right? It’s really to love and lead these people that God has given you to lead and love, right? So, if that is a starting point, have a clear, realistic expectation of how long it takes. Probably about three years to do this good work intentionally.

But the second thing really is, you begin with the people that God has given you. Sometimes leaders get really frustrated. A senior pastor would like read something like Centering Discipleship, feel really gung-ho about it, and then start something, and nothing happens, right? But in order for us to lead and love our people that God has already given us, I would already assume that God also thinks and believes and loves these people, that all of these people right now can also be discipled, right?

That is God’s assumption of them also. Therefore, it’s our assumption of our people, too. And to consider what is the thing that’s holding them back. Probably it’s because change is just hard for people in general. So, the way to love, and that’s included within those first three years, is to really, really address and help people and shepherd people through … There are two reasons why people are so hesitant to change: it’s because they feel like they’re losing things, so they experience loss, or they feel like they’re going to get lost in the thick of it. What tender things to have to bear with people?

And a preface, and a dress, a name for people, right? It’s a really loving thing to do and leading people well. I love Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and I always nickname him Dietrich Bonfire because he gives a fiery word, right, to leaders? And he writes a lot about a care for our people. And part of the thing is going to be, if we be as leaders, begin to complain about our people, then I don’t know if we should be leading. And he also further says, if we begin to complain about our people to God, then, I for sure don’t know if we should be leading.

So, the first place is you start with the people God has given you to lead and love. It’s your job to do that as leaders. And then second, have a really clear, realistic expectation of how long this takes in inherited especially established inherited churches — about three years.

[00:22:25] Cara: I really appreciate what you’ve had to share with us in this episode. Again, for our listeners, I encourage you to read this book, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. There’ll be a link in the show notes. Take a look at the GCI Equipper as well for information about a book club so that you can go through this material with a cohort of your peers to learn a little bit more and wrestle through what it would look like to live this out.

And, if you’re not so much of a reader, go ahead and check out the audio book. She narrates herself and it is a wonderful listen. Any way you’ve got to do it, I encourage you to get ahold of this material and go through it with your team, with your peers, and really begin to wrestle with this work of building a discipleship pathway.

Until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

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Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.