Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 3 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are thrilled to have Dr. Dennis Hollinger with us one more time to close out our miniseries on Christian ethics. Welcome Dr. Hollinger.

Dennis: Thank you so much, Cara. It’s been a joy to be, part of these various episodes.

Cara: Yes. Thank you. And as I just mentioned GC Podcast, one of the purposes for this podcast is to explore best ministry practices. How are we participating in ministry?

And so, for this final episode, I want to explore how the pieces that you’ve built up for us in the previous two episodes, how Christian ethics and ministry practice, how do they work together and how are our ministry practices maybe better informed by a Christian ethic?

And so, I’m just wondering to start with, what does a Christian ethic have to do with the life and ministry of a local congregation?

[00:01:51] Dennis: Thank you for that question. I would say for starters; we have to first of all understand that the church and a local congregation are vitally important to the Christian life.

When we come to Christ, we’re not called to be lone rangers. We’re called into a community. We become part of the body of Christ when we come to Christ. You have no choice when you come to Christ, whether it be in the church or not. You are in the body of Christ when you come to Christ. And so, I think that’s vital to understand that God has always called out a people who are together, not isolated.

That was true in the Old Testament. He called the Hebrew people to be his people, as a people, not lone-range individuals. And then you come to the New Testament and what happens? He calls out, first of all, a group of people. They weren’t highly educated. They weren’t impressive people at one level, but he called out these 12 disciples, one who actually turned his back against him.

And that was the beginning of the church. And we have the book of Acts and we see the vitality of the church. We have the epistles giving guidance to the church. And so, I just want to say that, at the beginning, the church is vital to the Christian life. And then, Christian ethics is vital in that church, in a local congregation.

A lot of people have asked me what do I think is the most important thing for the church today? And my response has been that we need to hold together truth and love, both truth and love.

It’s interesting in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. It talks about Christ as the logos who came into the world. How did he come? And this is repeated two times he came full of grace. And he came full of love and truth, if you will. And I think that is so vital in local congregations. We must be committed to the truth, both for our spiritual lives, but for our Christian ethics as well. When churches deviate from the truth of God’s word, the truth of the gospel, it impacts their ethics.

And I think we’re seeing this today in a lot of churches that have become wayward from the gospel, have moved away from the Word. We see it in many arenas, but perhaps nowhere is it clear than in sexual ethics where we have where people have changed the designs of God that go back to creation.

And so, I think we need to understand that today in the life of a congregation, we need both truth and love. I think this is so well summarized in 1 John 3:16–18.

This is how we know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. We ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need, he has no pity on them. How can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth.

In other words, love needs to be manifested. It needs to be demonstrated. Here, it’s talking about caring for those in the church, but other texts throughout scripture, it also talks about caring for the poor who are outside the church. But what I love about this verse 18, it’s with actions and in truth. It’s truth, love that go together. And so, I think when we think about congregational life, and those of you who are in leadership or who are helping to shape and to form and to mold congregations, it’s holding that dual commitment together. In truth and in love. I think those two things are just vital for today.

[00:06:06] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And I really appreciate your point about the local congregation is so critical to the Christian life, right? That we don’t really even have a choice to be part of the church as followers, in that sense.

[00:06:23] Dennis: It really is. And one of the things that I think happened during COVID is of course a lot of churches could not meet during that time. And a lot of people have not come back to the church. I’ve seen some data recently just on the number of people who are operating as Christians outside of a local church. A lot of people just tune in and sometimes they tune into different churches but not, are not meeting face-to-face with people. And I think we’ve really lost something in that.

[00:06:55] Cara: Yeah, and wanting to, again, I think that these more holistic approaches speak to that, right? Because if we’re thinking about ourselves as disciples and members of the church and living out a Christian ethic, heads, hands, and heart, right? Then we have to do that in community, right?

Dennis: Yeah, exactly.

Cara: We’re not able to, if you’re just tuning in, like you said, that’s maybe emphasizing just the head and maybe not those other aspects. So, I think that is so important. And I really appreciate that you mentioned that. And I think that’s a good reminder for our members, our leaders, the neighbors in our local congregational settings that, “You guys, you are designed to need each other.”

Dennis: Exactly.

Cara: “And so let’s do this together.” And so, I’m wondering, you mentioned, in terms of Christian ethics being lived out in the life of a congregation, as you holding together the truth and the love — how do you see it influencing ministry priorities and decisions about ministry practices?

[00:08:03] Dennis: Yes. So helpful question. I think it’s very important as we think about our ministry practices and our priorities, that we emphasize proclamation — I’m thinking here of the mission of the church outwardly — both proclamation of the gospel, and what sometimes is called Christian presence, which has to do with our actions and our character in the world.

We need both of those. We need to proclaim the gospel clearly to a hurting world. They need to hear the good news of Jesus Christ, that salvation is not found in our wealth. It is not found in our positions. It’s found in Jesus Christ. And we also need to then demonstrate that by our presence, by our actions of mercy and justice and love in the world.

That’s where we, and my first response here today was holding truth and love together, the truth of the gospel. But then love demonstrated, and I think there’s a great need for both. Many people can never hear the gospel because of our actions, our lack of actions, or wrong actions.

And it’s so important that if we don’t have a demonstration of Christian ethics in our lives in the congregation, there are a lot of people that are just going to turn away from the church. I think it’s important to remember that when people reject the Christian faith, it’s not just rejecting the message, it’s often rejecting what they observe about the church, things they see in the church or things that are lacking in the church.

And so, what this means, I think, is when we think about mission and missional leaving living, it means that we need to incorporate both evangelism and acts of mercy and justice in our mission. And of course that’s sustained by good teaching in the church. It’s sustained by strong spiritual formation in the church.

But it means that as we live out our life missionally in the life of a local congregation, we do it with a commitment to truth and to love, and we do it with a recognition that it must be a proclamation of the gospel. And a Christian presence by our actions in the world itself.

[00:10:34] Cara: Thank you. And that, that Christian presence and as you mentioned with the missional living aspect of the life of a local congregation of the church, kind of big C Church, I think that aspect of bringing that presence beyond how we sometimes say it, right? Like beyond the four walls of the church, is so important and so I appreciate that you mentioned that missional living as part of what that looks like, how it shapes priorities and practices it, because as you were speaking, I hear that a local congregation is necessary, right?

Dennis: Yeah, absolutely.

Cara: To be engaged in the neighborhood and the community as an integral part of living out a Christian ethic. Especially when we going all the way back to episode one, come back to creation.

Dennis: Yes.

Cara: And whose image we were created in. It’s not … missional living is, I guess, one of those things that we see is also not optional, right?

Dennis: Exactly.

Cara: Yeah, so I’m wondering, can you give us maybe, one example of what that can look like in maybe the neighborhood. In GCI, we, right now, are focusing on missional living in the neighborhood where we’re able to spend most of our time, and our life rhythms already are, where we — one of the things you say sometimes is — where we live, work, and play.

Dennis: Yeah.

Cara: So, it’s already where we are going, already where we’re naturally being sent by our life rhythm. So how are we being sent within that sent-ness, right? So, what would you say is an example of what that can look like?

[00:12:12] Dennis: I would say one of the things we have to do as our homework in analyzing our communities, like what are the needs in our community? And I don’t think one size fits all here.

Cara: Yes.

Dennis: The church we’re part of, one of the things that happened during COVID was that everything went online. But we’re not too far from a neighborhood that’s fairly poor and a lot of people could not get online to do their schoolwork. And so, there were about four or five months where people, basically, they were supposed to be online every day and some of them would try to go down outside of a restaurant or a public place so they could try to get online because they didn’t have internet connection in their home. They couldn’t afford internet connection. And so, they were falling behind in school.

So, one of the things we did was, we opened up our church. Young people, I think it was from middle school and high school, to come to the church to be able to get online. Tutors there — most of these were retired folks who would then work with them to try to catch them up in their schoolwork.

Now, that was a tremendous demonstration of love, and truth coming together. And I think that’s a very good practical example. Look at your neighborhood and see what are the needs. It may be educational needs. It may be economic needs. It may be needs for addressing certain tensions within the community.

The early church had to wrestle with this. One of the tensions they dealt with early on is they were bringing two different racial groups into the Body of Christ — Jews and Gentiles. They had a long history of hating each other, of prejudice. And so, in Ephesians 2, a great chapter that we come to Christ by faith, but then it is to be demonstrated in works.

And what was the first thing that Paul addressed? Overcoming the racial-ethnic divide. The old walls have been broken down in Jesus Christ. And I think in many communities today, we need to work on that — breaking down the walls of ethnicity and racism. And that’s so vitally important. And this is all going put us sometimes in tension with the world.

And one of the passages I don’t know that we have. How are we doing on time, Cara? I can mention this passage, if I have a few minutes …

[00:14:35] Cara: Yes, please go ahead and do.

[00:14:35] Dennis: John 17. You know the whole section in John 14 to 17 is a prayer of Jesus with his disciples. This is the very end before he goes to the cross. He gives them a lot of teaching about discipleship and what their life is going be once he’s gone.

And in chapter 17, he has this incredible prayer that portrays the tensions they were going to experience with Roman culture. And it’s so prevalent for us today. The tensions we’re going to experience with whatever culture you find yourself in. Let me just read a little bit to you. John 17:14.

I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of that world, but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them, I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

That is a rich, rich passage. I encourage you to ponder it. Those of you who are pastors preach on it. There are several things we find here. One is that by our lives we’re going to experience tensions with the world. Our values, our ethical commitments, our character are going to be at odds with the world around us.

“I’ve given them your word and the world has hated them.” But then interestingly, the second thing Jesus tells them is not only is there going to be tension in the world, but you’re called to stay in that world. You’re not called to leave it. That’s often the temptation. We want to just, if the world’s so bad out there, culture, society’s so bad, we just want to go into hibernation.

And Jesus said, no. “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.” So, we’re called to live in that world. But then, we are also called to a life of distinction within it. This gets back to the Christian ethics and the ethics within a congregation that are ethical practices.

The way in which our love is demonstrated, our commitments to justice and mercy are going to be distinct. “Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth. For them, I sanctify myself that they too may be truly sanctified.” That means set apart, distinct. And so, we’re not going to be defined in this world by our politics. We’re not going be defined in this world by what our church looks like on the outside. We’re going be defined by what the church looks like on the inside, and its character, and its actions. I think that’s so vital as we think about holding truth and love together in the world today.

[00:17:32] Cara: Yes. Thank you for sharing that passage with us. And I appreciate what you mentioned about knowing your context and your culture.

Dennis: Yeah. Yeah.

Cara: Because I think about living out Christian ethics and having it inform ministry practice. and all of these. It’d be holistic, wider views that you’ve introduced to us of both action and character, of head, hearts, and hands, that is going to look different in each context. And I think that emphasizes why we need one another as expressions in the local congregation, because that sounds like that there’s a lot of discernment in that.

[00:18:09] Dennis: That’s right.

[00:18:09] Cara: Yeah.

[00:18:10] Dennis: Very much.

[00:18:11] Cara: Check, check, check.

[00:18:11] Dennis: Yeah.  And you’re so right and you’ve given such a good summary there, Cara and I think it is just so vital that we sit, discern together.

I’ve seen sometimes in churches where one person has a vision for something that they think ought to be done, but no one else catches that, sees that. Now sometimes, they’ll catch on to the vision of one person, but we best discern together, I think, as we look at what should we be doing in our communities and how should we be doing it.

It’s not only what we should be doing, but the how is important as well, because it’s the how I think that really begins to reflect our character, our compassion, our … it’s not just the actions. But it is really how we go about carrying it out.

[00:19:00] Cara: Yeah. And I really do, encourage our listeners to, in your teams and the leadership, to go through that discerning practice, and to challenge yourselves to move beyond maybe previous conceptions of ethics and Christian ethics as maybe the one size fits all cookie cutter. Check, check, check. But to really consider these insights that Dr. Hollinger has brought to us and what that means for us as disciples, us as Christian leaders, us as those who are shaping and participating in ministry practices in missional living in our neighborhoods. I do invite you. And challenge you because that’s the summary that of what I’ve felt during these conversations is the beautiful invitation and also the challenge of what that might look like and the things that we might have to allow to be transformed and give up, and that tension that you mentioned that we might have to live within in our own context. I just encourage you to seek God in prayer one with another and see where he’s going to lead you and how you can partner in what he’s doing in your context through character and action as those who are holistic beings made in his image — head, heart, and hands.

So, Dr. Hollinger, as we wrap up our miniseries. Is there a final word that you would leave with our listeners when it comes to this very broad or very large and rich topic of Christian ethics?

[00:20:35] Dennis: Yeah, I would say to you, nurture your whole life. And I come back to, and Cara just mentioned this: the head, the heart, and the hands. Make sure that you are really discerning in these three areas and that you’re nurturing and developing all three. Because it’s all three that will keep us committed to truth and to love. It’s all three that will enable us, I think, to live the Christian in our deeply secular, deeply divided, sometimes hostile world that we face as believers and as the Church.

[00:21:12] Cara: Thank you. That’s a good word. I really like that — nurturing all of those aspects. Before we close out today for our listeners, I want to encourage you if you want to learn more, explore the insights that Dr. Hollinger has shared with us today. In the show notes for the podcast episode, there will be the titles of his works that were referenced during these podcast episodes.

So, feel free please to go ahead and look to those as additional resources as you walk into whatever the next step is that looks like for you and your leadership team in your particular local context. And with that, Dr. Hollinger, thank you so very much for joining us. This has been a very rich and beautiful conversation and I’m really encouraged by the insights that you have brought to us.

And it’s our kind of practice with GC podcast to end our shows with the word of prayer. And so, if you would, I would love if you would pray for our churches, pastors, ministry leaders, members, our neighborhoods — that we would continue to live increasingly more richly this Christian ethic that we’ve talked about today.

[00:22:29] Dennis: I’d be delighted to and Cara, again, thank you for this kind imitation it was a joy to interact with you and with your people. Let me pray for you. Gracious God, I thank you for Grace Communion International. I thank you for the way in which you have guided and directed them over these last years to be faithful to your Word, to be faithful to the gospel, and to be really committed to being a vital Kingdom ministry in the world. I pray for the pastors of churches. I pray Lord, that they will not become discouraged. I know so many pastors, Lord, are discouraged these days. Encourage them, grant them strength, grant them the courage they need. I pray for lay leaders, Lord, that you will enable them as they carry out various functions in the church, as they try to live the ethical life in their callings at business or teaching or whatever ministry, whatever vocation you’ve called them to. And I pray for the leadership of Grace Communion International. We thank you, Lord for the work that they do. Encourage them, strengthen them. And Lord, for all of us who have listened to these podcasts, we pray that you will do a work in our hearts and our minds that will be committed even more deeply to your truth and to your love. Where it is in Christ’s name we pray. Amen.

[00:24:08] Cara: Amen. That’s all for day today, folks. So, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

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Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us@infoatgci.org.