Paul Young—Year C Christmas 1

Anthony: We’re in the home stretch. We have one more text to go. It’s Hebrews 2:10–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday after Christmas, December 28. Paul, read it for us, please.

Paul: I would love to.

10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.” 13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Here am I and the children whom God has given me.” 14 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. 16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels but the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself was tested by what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.

Anthony: He’s able. Let’s think for a moment about sanctification. I’m curious from your perspective, is that an ongoing spiritual formational reality, or is it an already accomplished work, or is it both? And I’m referring to verse 11, and what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ?

Paul: You tell me. Who’s the church? It’s human beings. So, what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? It’s to tell the story of being a burning bush. It is both a finished work and it is an ongoing work. We were in Christ and when he died, we died — finished work. When he rose, we rose — finished work. When he ascended, we ascended — finished work. And yet in space and time and we work it out, because our ability to say no to God matters as much as our ability to say yes.

Anthony: Wow.

Paul: Because apart from that love cannot exist. We would just be part of a machine. And so, God respects and protects our ability to say no. And yet in us continues to work moment by moment, day by day, to cleanse us, to heal us from all the detritus of the consequences of our turning away from love, all the ways that we have not been able to trust. And so there is a continuous work that is going on and God doesn’t build those kinds of roads going nowhere.

Our hope is in Jesus. Our residence is in Jesus, whether we acknowledge it or know it or not. And that is true for all of creation that was created in him. And so, the church — we bear our martyrdom, right? Our witness, our martýrios — our death.

There is a — give me a second and I’m going to look at one passage, hold on. So, I’m going add one little section to the lectionary today and here’s what it is. It’s 2 Corinthians 2:15–17.

For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one those who are being saved, it is a fragrance from death to death and to the other, those who are perishing, it’s a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things.

“To those who are being saved, it’s a fragrance and aroma from death to death” — that is dying to ourself, centeredness to our addictions, to our idolatry of fear, to our attachments, to our nationalism, to our money and compliments and approval, dying to future tripping, to false selves and their names, and their self-protection and self-promotion, dying to reputation and so on, and so on, and so on. This is a “death to death” experience.

To those who are perishing, it’s an aroma from “life to life.” It’s the incarnation of love and goodness and kindness, the presence of love, the burning bush that attracts by its very nature, the anomaly of something not dying. The glimpse of something alive, of a different world, of an incarnation, of “life to life.” Who is sufficient for these things?

If that’s a shout that Paul cries out, deep soul joined by spirit and mouth, by the body, the wonder of which the mind bows, it’s too much. That’s what Paul was saying. It’s too much. That’s what we’re talking about, Anthony. That’s the process of sanctification. And on any given day, in any given moment, I may be perishing as I’m holding on to crap, and at any given moment, I may be moving from “life to life.” There are some choices that I make and some embracing that I do, some extending of forgiveness that is “life to life.” And people can smell it. They can smell it. And they can also smell the death stuff.

And so, when you’re in this world and you take a whiff of the news, you can smell the perishing. And when they suddenly have a little story about someone who went out of their way to go help someone with something, you can smell it. That is the presence of the God who is love by nature and who is in us, in union with us, to express that nature into the cosmos.

Anthony: It’s not natural to love someone well.

Paul: It is natural!

Anthony: At least well from the standpoint of when I’m dying to self. It’s just, it’s hard to put somebody, to esteem somebody as greater than me, to put their needs above mine. It’s only by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. I know me, Paul. Yeah. I can’t do it.

Paul: But it’s natural. We’ve got to get to the place where we recognize that that kind of existence, that ability to love is natural to the truth of who we are. And then we can agree and join into it as natural and you will find in doing so that your world will change. It’s when we are thinking that we are in an ongoing forever battle, that our nature is such that it is polluted to begin with, that we’ve got to struggle and strive in all this. That is not natural.

Anthony: Yeah. And that’s why I really appreciate Eugene Peterson and thinking about discipleship because we often think of it as becoming something we’re not. Whereas I look at it as God is returning us to ourselves. That’s exactly who we truly are.

Paul: That’s exactly right, Anthony.

Anthony: And sometimes that doesn’t feel so great. And that can happen even in the midst of suffering. And I did want to ask you about this. We know that suffering is universal. It is part of our participation in our Lord. We’ve all been touched by it. So, I just want to ask you as a closing word, what difference does it make that we have a great high priest who is human, who in his person is in the place where divinity and humanity are united, who understands our humanity and who is super over abundant in his mercy? What difference does it make?

Paul: It makes a difference when we think about where this high priest dwells. If we think that the high priest is somewhere up there, over there, out there, then it doesn’t make any difference. Not really. It’s more of a thought experiment.

But when we recognize that this high priest is in union with us and continuing to fill up his own sufferings in us, that changes things. That means that I have a certainty of the nature of this one who refuses to leave me alone in my suffering. That uniting with my suffering means that I’m never alone to it or in it, and that Christ in me continues to fill up his sufferings and we get to join him in that, which is the way that love expresses itself into the world.

And then I know I’m not alone. And that the redeeming genius who is suffering in me, with me, we together in participation, will love in such a way in the midst of this, that we will be the presence of love in any situation, some which are so hard. And I know those who are listening, some of you out there, you are in the midst of incredible rocky times. And been there. Hellish. I’m sad with you. A lot of it you didn’t ask for. And I’m saying, look, you’re not alone. There’s no way that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will ever disregard what is going on in your world, will ever abandon you to what is going on in your world. I will never ever, ever, never ever leave you or forsake you. That is the promise of the one who suffers with us.

Anthony: Thank you, Lord. Paul. I love you, man.

Paul: Love you, too.

Anthony: And I want to remind you of something you did 10 years ago. It came to my mind. I knew we were going to have this conversation. And you probably won’t remember this, but I was about to leave on a trip with my wife Elizabeth to San Diego. And just before I closed my laptop, I was on Twitter at the moment and you had posted that you were going to be in San Diego for a book signing. And I thought, oh, I’m just going to send him a note and see if he has any free time and come hang out with us at the house where we’re going be for some meetings.

And, lo and behold, I thought there’s like a half percent chance that you’d be available. But you were, and you came and you spent hours with us just talking and sharing life and it was wonderful. And it’s just one of those moments that tells me who you are, who you know you are in Christ, and you’re just so generous with yourself and your time. I’m just very grateful for who you are.

Paul: How cool is that? I have no, it is, I have no memory of it at all.

Anthony: It’s true. It happened.

Paul: One of my own suffering places is that four years ago, [inaudible] left frontal lobe, focal point epilepsy. And I live my life on walking on trap doors, but one of the things that has impacted is my data center. And so, I have a horrible time with names and so I’m in the middle of this kind of world. And so, suffering is not something that I don’t know about in terms of my history and in terms of my ongoing real world, day by day. There’s no fear in love, and I have no fear of any of these things. And I live it one moment at a time.

So, I thank you, Holy Spirit, that I got to be honored in such a way 10 years ago as to be able to spend time with y’all. And that just blesses me. Thank you.

Anthony: Oh, you bless us. And I want to thank the team that also blesses us. A podcast doesn’t happen, poof, out of vapor. There’s a team behind this. So, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman, thank you for your gifts and the way that you share of yourselves to make this possible.

As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. And Paul, we’d be delighted if you’d say a word of prayer for us.

Paul: It’s always an honor to do so.

Papa God and Jesus and Holy Spirit. Our words are certainly lacking, but you know our hearts because you dwell there and you are clearing away all the poisons and the indoctrinations and the toxic stuff. Sometimes we think too slowly. But one thing I’ve come to know about you is that you won’t heal us in such a way that would harm us. And so, Jesus like you did, entered into all of our stuff, all of it in your humanity, you went down to the depths of our delusions and our places where we cry out, “Where are you?” And you cried out our cry, but you made the choice to trust. So today we abandon our whys. Why this and why that? And we enter into your goodness in such a way that the question is now what? What now? In the middle of our losses, in the middle of our sufferings in this moment, Holy Spirit, show us what now. And I thank you. I thank you for all the millions of people who are in each moment participating in your affection, to love the one who is in front of them as Reuel and Anthony are involved in this and all the others. I know it’s an expression of your union with them participating into the world in love. So are the millions of others and the ones who are listening to this. I bless you. I bless you in this moment with peace. I bless you in this moment with the arms of affection wrapped around you, that you would sense and feel and touch and taste, that your heart would be emboldened, that you would be able to sit, to sit, to relax inside that embrace. Thank you for your ongoing kindness to each of us. Amen.

Anthony: Amen.