Cara: In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of Kingdom Living.

Hello folks, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am so excited to dive into episode two of our miniseries with Reverend Dr. Eun Strawser. We are exploring the role of shared leadership in developing local congregations that are participatory, relational, missional, and transformational by diving into Eun’s book, You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone: The Power of Sharing Leadership.

And welcome, welcome, welcome, Eun. I am so excited for this next set of conversations.

[00:01:00] Eun: Thanks for having me again, Cara.

[00:01:02] Cara: Awesome. So, Eun, in the beginning of this second part of your book, you start with exploring parts of Ephesians 4, Romans 12, and 1 Corinthians 12. And this, for me, was really exciting because in GCI leadership development, these are foundational passages that kind of guide our ethos, our vision, like, how we do what we do, why we do what we do, what it looks like to do what we do.

And can you just talk to us a little bit more about how you see these passages providing a compelling vision for a leadership that’s shared?

[00:01:45] Eun: Absolutely. For some people who pick up this book, they pick it up because they love that … I know for GCI, you folks use the Five Voices tool. Other people may be more familiar with APEST ― apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher, or the fivefold gift set, however way you’re familiar with it

If you’re familiar with it, people love to grab these kinds of books because I think that the detriment to the church has been, if there’s anything like a personality test, everybody who loves the Enneagram, if you know what it is, and you like it. Any, and whatever shapes has come in, a StrengthFinders, whatever that kind of personality test people, and leaders especially, grab onto, I think, again, this is borrowed from the business models. We love to gravitate toward it because we love to just consume it, and we love to just eat it, and we’re just — we just become this me, me monster.

So, the reason why I started the second part, because the second part is around those Five Voices or APEST. The second part, I needed to make sure that it’s anchored to why is it even important about clarifying these unique voices, these unique five voices in shared leadership. It has to be anchored to the reason why this kind of leadership or shared leadership ought to exist.

So, Ephesians 4, Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12 ― I go a little bit into John 17 as well. All of these passages actually are linked to what is the reason why the church exists? And if we can’t figure that out, then we will just make it up. Because sometimes we think that the church just exists so that it can be a social club for people who traditionally know that church is a part of my culture, right?

Or other people think that churches only exist so that they can do charitable giving, and that’s why they exist, right? Or churches exist so that they can produce funds so that it can be sent overseas for far away ministries, right? You can put in lots of different reasons why people could make up why churches exist.

But if you take a biblical perspective on the church … And I focus on these epistles from the Apostle Paul on purpose because all of these passages actually came before any of the gospels were written. So, any Jesus story or the Jesus Christ that was being told and circulated in the first century, they were written after these letters to all of these house churches in these regions were already read and have already been circulating.

And a lot of biblical scholars also say that, and historians say that, they were also interchangeable. So, the letter to Ephesians could have also been read amongst the house churches in Corinth as well, and vice versa. So, if this was a culminating picture and vision of what the church ought to be, it’s something we should pay attention to, and we should use that as a reason to why is it in the wisdom of God that Jesus would appoint and give to the church shared leadership and not just a hierarchical church model.

So, when you kind of look at these passages you first … Everybody loves the Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 passages because these are the first go to places of how we think about different spiritual gifts, let’s say, and how different people are maybe are more hospitable or generous or have the teaching gift or whatnot.

But if you were to actually think through what is the whole point of the Apostle Paul to these house churches, to these first churches, it’s that if you do not keep to the unity of the church, because the uniqueness of this new family of Jesus is that, It’s the first time that intergenerational, intercultural, inter-economic, right, intergender spaces, all of these kinds of combination of mixed groups that did ― that were separate before, now are coming together at a shared table, and they are working together to go and serve their neighbors in their local neighborhood. That is the uniqueness of the Christian Church. Those kinds of communities and families and different kinds of ways of doing faith communities have never been done before.

So, if the unity of the church is the biggest emphasis, we also know that shared leadership’s goal is also for the unity of the church. So, that’s one part. But if you kind of go down a little bit more, like Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 there are usually these body analogies.

I’m also co-vocational, I’m a physician. So, the first time that I read about any sort of body, the body parts of the family of God, I’m just, like, “Wow, what a fantastic metaphor to use,” because I’m going to think ― be thinking about the human body. Of course, a hand is not an eye. Of course, a foot is not a mouth, right? We can already kind of see that.

But that’s not the reason why the Apostle Paul uses that word body. If you are a first-century Christian and you’re in a Roman context, if you hear the word body, it’s referencing the way that the Roman Empire has come in and probably oppressed and colonized your people group.

And when they talk about body, that’s referencing the body politic of Rome. So usually when Rome will go to a different area of that world, of this huge growing empire, the kingdom of Rome, they would call ― go and announce the good news that Rome has come to save them and that we’re only going to take the best of your people and assimilate them into the body Rome. You can’t speak your own language. This is a whole a colonized perspective of conquering, right?

It’s in that context that the Apostle Paul is using the word body. He’s saying if you’re a Jesus community, if you’re a faith community centered around imitating Jesus together, right? The uniqueness of this group is the fact that you are committing that actually Rome is not king ― Jesus is. And how does Jesus’ body politic operate? In Jesus’ kingdom, nobody is actually dispensable. Everyone is included. Everyone is meaningful. Everyone is valuable. You can never say that one part is better than another. That is revolutionary in a context where these people have been taken over, right? We have concern for one another because we treat one another with a dignity as image-bearers and they’re brothers and sisters of Jesus. That is revolutionary.

The second part that the Apostle Paul emphasizes in both of these passages is any time that there is construction words built up, those kinds of words, if you are a first-century Christian most likely in this context in Rome there’s both Jewish and Gentile Jesus followers. If you listen and hear about these building of construction words, then it is a direct shortcut so that you’re going to start thinking about temple language. And what does a temple represent in the Hebrew Bible? It’s the place where God’s indwelling presence is. So, the whole point about the church’s existence is that it is also a body of resistance to a conquering or oppressive culture at hand.

But it also is the very place ― this community, these people gathering together ― is the very place that God chooses to put his indwelling presence on. Those are the two links to why a faith community who imitates Jesus will be in unity. He’s already defining it for the church. So, if we don’t have this clarity that we are, we exist as a community, as a church, so that we get to reflect God’s indwelling presence, and we are actually a people of resistance to empire at hand in our current culture, and that’s what produces a unity for us, then we wouldn’t even know why shared leadership or leadership in general would be necessary for the church.

[00:10:31] Cara: Yes, and I really appreciated those because I think that these are often when we talk about leadership and giftings and coming together within the church to share our giftings and our things that we care about and to bring leadership and develop leadership, these are pretty common passages that are often brought to the table.

And the way that you just explained them and the way that you explored them in your book are not common ways of understanding, right? And so, I was actually just …. it just makes it so much richer and so much more I don’t know, just beautiful and compelling to understand these passages and what they would mean to the original readers and hearers and what they meant when Paul first wrote them, like, in the original context, right?

Because, yeah, they do have their own kind of, for you even as a physician, right? The body and they all belong together, and I think that right in our context has it’s meaningful, but I think, like, when put into its historical context I was just … it’s incredible, right? And when you think even about our theme this year in GCI about kingdom living, what more to say? We live according to the kingdom of Jesus, not whatever empire is at hand right now, where nobody is dispensable, where everyone is brought together, where this unity is important, and in this kingdom with this body of people brought together, that’s where God has chosen to dwell among his people. That’s just, yeah, incredible.

So, I really appreciate you bringing that to us as just like foundational for our understanding of, like, why we even need to think about unity and everyone, like, needing to have a space, right, at the table, I guess, maybe to say, like, in the body of Christ, because it’s a different kind of body than the ones maybe we’re used to outside of his kingdom.

And you did mention as well, maybe, the parallel from APEST to Five Voices, and they’re both tools that we use in GCI. The Five Voices is probably more common language and of a tool that we use. But we do use APEST as well. And so, for our listeners, I just want to make that connection for you, that there are those similarities, and we do have some resources that you can draw upon from our website that kind of help to point to some of those connections of some of the values and priorities, and even relation to time and whether we’re more oriented towards the future or the present and those kind of things.

We have some resources that help to bridge that connection between APEST and the Five Voices. And so, if you’re interested in that, if the Five Voices are more familiar, more comfortable to you as a tool or a common language in your congregation, go ahead and refer to those resources as well.

And in your book specifically, and you discuss APEST, that can be a tool that supports living into shared leadership. And so, I’m wondering what’s helpful about having a tool or a common language to support practices of shared leadership versus just saying we’re going to share leadership, so let’s do it.

[00:14:59] Eun: Yeah. When we do it that way, it just never happens. Our personalities will get in the way. And our practices, traditional practices will get in the way. And I do love … I do think that having a common tool and language is helpful because it helps us to solidify and do what we’re saying we’re committing to doing.

And if we have clarity about these things, it’s such a gift to leaders. My biggest thing about APEST or even using Five Voices, these tools that help to clarify that there are different kind of leaders or different contributions that leaders bring as a gift to the congregation and to the community around them ― when we have clarity around it, we also know have a clarity that not one kind of leader is better than another or lesser than another, and I think that’s really important to state.

I think the other thing is that I think it clarifies that it’s not really talking about different personalities. We shouldn’t be giving away leadership just because we want a well, more well-rounded personality traits, right, amongst a set of people. Because again, the gift of … And I’ll use APEST as the example just because I’m much more familiar with it. But the gift of APEST as a tool to living out shared leadership within a church context is so that we can move away from just personality or skill-based things.

But you want to know what is the gift of contribution? What is the thing that this kind of leader is trying to impact the community? The biggest, I think, misunderstanding of the Ephesians 4 chapter is that we misread it. So, Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers ― this is Ephesians 4:11-13 ― to equip his people for works of service, not do the works of service for his people. That is usually how it is misinterpreted. So that, why? So that the church will grow? So that the pews will come in and our budgets will grow higher?

No. So that the body of Christ may be built up. There’s that temple language again, that indwelling presence of God language again. Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature. Oh, that’s all discipleship attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, right? He’s already defining it. What is the reason why shared leadership and leadership in general exists within the framework of the church?

So that the people of God, the congregation, will be equipped, so that they’re doing the works of service of God. So, that’s the way in which they’re going to be built up and experience and reflect the indwelling presence of God, and live into their unity, and live into a body that is resistant and is for the care of their neighbors, right?

If that’s the reason why, then having a common tool and language and having clarity around why shared leadership exists helps us to know who do we go to be equipped in X, Y, and Z things. That’s the question you’re trying to answer with having these common language and supporting practices.

[00:18:30] Cara: Yes. And so, even as you say that, like, who do we go to ― it’s a really … it’s practical, right? It’s like a functional way that we can …

Eun: Listen, Cara, I think …

Cara: … commit to live out what we’re saying we’re going to do.

Eun: I am pretty sure the biblical stories that we are given in the full, whole Bible is not because they’re all supposed to be theoretical.

Cara: Yes.

[00:18:56] Eun: I am pretty sure it’s meant so that we can actively live into them and understand the wisdom, God’s wisdom around why is it better to live into a faith community in this way? Why is it better to have clarity around shared leadership? Why is it better to know and clearly be equipped in the works of service for the betterment of not just our church, but the community that our church resides in? Why is that better?

[00:19:23] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That not just theoretical. Yes. And I think one thing that you mention in this section of your book that is related to, that really spoke to me was, I think, that when we have this common tool or language, not only it is it that question of ― it brings clarity, right? I think that one key word that jumps out to me is clarity. So, we can answer those kind of questions of who do we go to be equipped with X, Y, Z?

And then it also gives us clarity of, how do we shape our structures and processes, right? And so, even down to the little functional minute details of like, how do we run meetings in a way that supports shared leadership? When we have a common tool that everyone in the congregation and community is going to become familiar with, then it’s easier to create structures that facilitate those goals of shared leadership versus we just have this intention that we’re going to share leadership, and that’s going to happen in our meetings.

But, like, how do you make sure that happens, right? And so, I think that, yeah, I just I find it very practical to, and like you mentioned earlier, to be able to commit to what we’re saying we want.

[00:20:59] Eun: Yes. I think a very clear example, and again, my apologies to your listeners because I’m not that familiar with the Five Voices, but if we use APEST as just as an example of a tool, it’s not just having clarity around practices and, in common vocabulary, but it also helps to clarify what is the value or the reflection of Jesus that leader, that type of leader needs to share, needs to boldly share in order to equip the church.

So, if we’re using APEST like the … And I change up purposefully the language around it because I do think most of the time most of the writing around these fivefold or APEST or writings around Ephesians 4:11-13 is written by white male authors. And so, a lot of times it’s really excluded in the history of church women and people of color from these conversations. So, I intentionally change up some wordings around it so that it could be fresh, people can come in and be able to better hear it without a lot of baggage. And I talk more about what is the kind of equipping environment that these different APEST leaders provide for the church.

So, the teacher provides a learning environment, the shepherd provides a healing environment, the evangelist provides a welcoming or hospitable environment, the prophet actually provides a liberating environment, and the apostle provides a sending environment. If the church isn’t doing all and living into all five of these things, the church is actually really limited.

If a church is just practicing healing without any work in liberating, it’s not the full church. If a church is only participating in learning but never sending people out, the church is not a complete church. If the church is so good at welcoming but not healing anything or anybody, it’s not a complete church.

So, if you don’t have a mechanism or practicalities or practices of a shared leadership where these kinds of communal equipping environments are being provided as a norm, then I think that it’s an incomplete church.

[00:23:21] Cara: Yes. Yes. And that this helps us to hold ourselves to that beautiful vision of a complete church and a full church, and not just a one-dimensional kind of like aspects that we might settle for.

[00:23:39] Eun: Yes. Yes, and usually it’s something that we probably feel more comfortable with.

Cara: Yes

Eun: Or it’s what our congregation feels comfortable with, and it goes back to our initial conversation from last time that, oh, it is kind of nice to attend a church where our congregation members feel safe and special, but I promise it would never really live out the mission of Jesus.

[00:24:08] Cara: Yes. Yes. No, I really appreciate your exploration of APEST and I think how it can bring, again, that key word for me is clarity, and how are we being clear as a church community of how we are living as a whole church and not this, you know, shadow or one-dimensional piece, but are we having all of these learning environments present and cultivated?

And that piece of like equipping the people of God for works of service, that is huge in GCI development. And that’s really the purpose of church leadership, is to equip the people of God for works of service. GCI development is all about emphasizing that we equip the people of God for works of service.

And you touched on this already a little bit, but how does shared leadership specifically, compared to maybe other approaches or models of leadership more effectively equip others specifically for works of service?

[00:25:19] Eun: Yes. I think that lots of times people think that shared leadership just means, “Oh, great. There are more leaders to do more things on our behalf.”

Cara: Yes.

Eun: And that’s what they think. Not delegated leadership. Exactly. It’s exactly, yes. Shared leadership is very different from delegated tasks of leadership, right? And so, if shared leadership, if we’re saying that leadership’s role from Ephesians 4:11-13 is that God, Jesus appointed the shared gifts of leadership to the churches, to every church so that the people of God can be equipped, I think the question then you have to answer is what kind of equipping spaces and equipping environments are being held within the life of the church?

Are people being equipped so that not only are they just learning from, let’s say, teacher-oriented leaders, but are they as a congregation learning also to teach one another about the good news of Jesus, right? It’s not just that there’s an environment of healing so that the congregation comes and is healed, but are they actually being equipped so that they are people through whom Jesus is healing one another and healing the community around them, right?

It’s not just the leader who is really great at being hospitable, and it’s a leader who is going in and welcoming everybody into a gathered space. But are the people of God being equipped to know how to be hospitable to the community around them? Are they bridge makers? Do they know how to be equipped in that, right?

And I think that you know people who are the church being equipped so that they practice what it means to be participating in the liberation of other people and communities, right?

If these kinds of things aren’t working, I would be remiss to say that the church is probably only, at, at best limited to experiencing it just for themselves and not the community around them. A different, I think, another test of shared leadership equipping is actually being enacted in the life of the church is that you don’t just stay within the community, the church community. You look at the community, the neighborhood, or the city that the church is residing in, and how are they being impacted by the works of a service that the people of God are participating in?

[00:27:52] Cara: Yes. Yeah, I think that’s a really helpful … I don’t know the right word I want to use … not like litmus test or measure, but yeah, maybe reflection or whatever. Because are we seeing that equipping happen or are these things that we’re just seeing consumed by the church community. And I think coming back to our earlier conversations, I think maybe that’s part of the shift is even with how we understand APEST giftings is, it’s not just these are the giftings that you bring to give to everyone, but this is what you bring to equip people with.

[00:28:53] Eun: Yes. Because again, it’s the revolutionary thing about the first century church was not just that all these different cultural lines and economic lines and gender lines, all those kinds of things were brought together. It wasn’t just that.

It’s that there was this faith community of these Jesus followers who were so compelled by a self-giving love that they wouldn’t just do it for one another. They would do it in a way that benefited the flourishing of the neighborhood around them. So, I know for folks who work in church development work and such, a common question is, if your church community or faith community fell into a sinkhole would the neighborhood around the church actually even notice?

But I think actually a better question is if the neighborhood in which the church resided in fell into a sinkhole, would the church even notice that it happened?

[00:29:35] Cara: Yeah, that’s powerful. I think with that powerful question of reflection let’s go ahead and wrap up this conversation of the second episode. I thank you so much for everything that you’ve given to us and shared in this, and I want to invite you to say a prayer over our listeners and leaders and members and community members, neighbors, and just everyone who God will prayerfully touch and impact through the hearing of this episode and the reading of your book.

[00:30:17] Eun: I will be gladly.

Jesus, thank you so much. I just pray for every single listener, every leader, every pastor. I pray that you would put in all of our hearts this indelible Spirit that you have already deposited in us, that we would be the body of Christ, a body of resistance to those who are suffering, a body that is for people and with people. And you would also make us to be a people and a gathered people who reflect and live into your indwelling presence among us. May we be people through all the ways that shared leadership will equip our churches, that we are people where, whom we are, belong to one another, we have concern for one another because we want to imitate you. Thank you for all the ways that you already love us. You love our churches. You love our leaders. You love all the cities and towns and neighborhoods that we reside in. It’s in your good name we pray, amen.

[00:31:30] Cara: Amen. Amen. And until next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to this episode of GC Podcast. We hope you found this time valuable. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org with your suggestions or feedback. And remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders, so invest in yourself and in your leaders.