“Humility …, that big piece, is such a big, important part of Christlikeness —there’s already a starting point. I just commend all the leaders who get to this point, who have and recognize a desire to center discipleship, who can honestly say that it’s not happening in their local context.”Discipleship Structures w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt 3
Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.
This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.
Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.
I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we complete our mini-series on discipleship with Dr. Reverend Rasser. We are finishing up our conversation surrounding her book Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. If you haven’t already, check out the first two episodes of this mini-series to get a sense of the foundation that we’ve laid so far.
Thank you so much for joining us once again today.
Eun: Oh my gosh. Such a pleasure, Cara.
Cara: Well, we have already explored a lot. We left off the last episode with, you gave some kind of words of encouragement and advisement and spoke about for pastors the process of leading change and what that looks like as we do this good and challenging work of building a discipleship pathway.
In your book, you discuss different approaches to change and suggest transformational change, as a way to approach change as we build out discipleship pathways in our local church context. And so, I’m wondering what are some ways that as local leadership we can facilitate an assessment of behaviors, structures, and assumptions, which is one of the structures of change theory that you put forth in those last few chapters of your book.
[00:02:31] Eun: Yeah. This is probably the part where if I haven’t really made the case that discipleship needs to be centered then this is like the snooze-fest part of the book. Because if you’re not seeing this as a leader for your own self, that discipleship needs to be centered, then you know what, you can close that book right from there. Because that, that part of the book around change dynamics and change theory is really trying to be, if you find yourself as a leader that you have a clear look, landscape of your church and you know that, okay. I desire for discipleship to be centered, but I humbly and honestly can say that discipleship is at the periphery of my church community — if you’re at that point, then the next question will be, then therefore, how can I begin to center discipleship within my local context? If you’re there, then all of these conversations around fleshing out assumptions and structures and behavior. This is when it’s helpful.
And I mention that because I want you to move into that part, and if there’s like any shred of pride still left in you, this is when it gets shredded out. It’s a hard read and this is the part where a lot of leaders tell me, “Eun, that’s a hard, hard read,” because it takes so much humility and this is the part where when I work with leaders, this is the part that I break down and cry, because I just love the people who are trying do this.
It takes a humble leader and to me, you’re already somebody that I want your church to imitate as you imitate Christ. Because humility, that big piece, is such a big, important part of Christlikeness —there’s already a starting point. I just commend all the leaders who get to this point, who have and recognize a desire to center discipleship, who can honestly say that it’s not happening in their local context. And then therefore, how can they do this? Because it begins, how can you hold that tension of really uprooting what I assume about my local community or my people? What do I assume, what do I assume about my own leadership?
The last time we talked about testing and assessing and not being afraid of using those words and really pressing into those practices around our organizations or communities. But it is really taking a look honestly at what structures and systems and constructs are there that help to support our assumptions.
And then the best way is looking at — we really never know if it’s something which is happening or working, or discipleship actually is being centered if we can’t look at the behavior of those people, of the disciples, of the Christians within our local churches. Are they actually beginning to behave more like Christ? And you set that against those clear maturity markers of being a disciple we talked about before. So, this whole process, of looking at it, is a humble work. Sometimes it’s a humbling work. But I think it’s, again, really good work, and it really is giving us concrete next steps to discovering what are those clear next steps that we need to work on or we need to tend to, so that discipleship will be more centered in our midst.
[00:06:18] Cara: Yes. And that’s really helpful, that at this point, we need to be convinced of the work to be done if we’re going to start it because it won’t be easy. Once we are convinced of the importance of doing the work of centering discipleship, then we can move through these pieces. And I again, really appreciate that lack of fear of that idea of assessing and looking at where are these fruits, what do the lives of disciples in our local church look like, the lives of disciples that exhibit these markers that we’ve identified that are clear, that aren’t wishy-washy, that we can’t really put flesh on. So that’s …
[00:07:21] Eun: Can I tell a story to hammer this in a little bit?
Cara: Please.
Eun: Okay. It’s okay. And if I start like, breaking down crying, I apologize. All the listeners having to hear me talk for this long for these many sessions and having to hear me cry …
Cara: You’re allowed.
Eun: So, one of our, one of our disciples in our first year … you know we’re in our seventh year now and we’ve multiplied those centered and bounded set contracts from 1 to 12, seven years later. So, one of those community leaders, her name is Kelsey — she’s like, she’s the quintessential Wisconsin girl who lives in Hawaii — she just does not fit in.
She’s blonde hair, blue eyed. She looks like she’s 12. She’s in her thirties and bubbly personality. Wonderful. And she always thought that her biggest contribution to being a part of a church is that she’s going to join the greeter ministry. Every single church that Kelsey has attended, she just went up and said, “Hi, my name’s Kelsey. I want to join the greeter ministry,” because she thought that is the best she could do, that the biggest contribution as a Jesus follower for the church. And she’s really good at it. She’s so welcoming, super hospitable. But the other things about Kelsey is that she’s a hospice care nurse, so you already know that God made her to love the seniors in our midst.
The other thing about Kelsey is that her neighborhood in Kaka Ako, her bike path to work, she goes past three different low-income senior living facilities on her way to work. If you ever go on a bike path, a cycling episode with Kelsey down that road, she’s like a celebrity. All of these aunties and uncles, all these seniors, they come out and they know her by name. She knows everybody else by name, because God has made her to really love seniors. And when we were going through a discipleship pathway, like one of the concrete things for us in our discipleship core essentials that we use in our pathway is having a heart for the one. Having a heart for the one really means, do we love the same kinds of people that God has a heart for? And God has a heart for, all over scripture, for those who are far from him and far from community, those two things are actually important. And probably one in the same to God, right — being far from God and far from community. So, we intentionally disciple and equip every single one of our disciples so that they are equipped in the ways to love those who are far from God and far from society. For these low-income seniors, they are the, probably the most, one of the most marginalized people in our midst.
Some of these folks when we’re working with them, they were, “How do you even know that we exist? We’re just like out in the shadows. We don’t have any monetary contribution to society. We’re just useless.” This is from their own words. And things like that just broke Kelsey’s heart.
So, in the beginning, she was a part of a church and she was probably a small group leader, a member of bubbly personality. She makes really good coffee too. And she was probably had one of the fastest growing small groups. She had about 30 people in her small group. Everybody loves Kelsey. They would do a Bible study, chat, rub shoulders together. It just became this wonderful social gathering.
But Kelsey just had — because I was discipling her — Kelsey just had this burning urgency in her heart that she knew God was putting there. And she knew that, what if there was a vision for these low-income senior facilities to also be a part of community, to also be discipled, because she had a heart that every single one of these seniors, we call them kupuna or our elders in Hawaiian. What if all the kupuna in this neighborhood really, really knew that they were seen and loved by Jesus?
What would happen then? That was a big question in her heart. But she was so afraid to tell her small group, this growing small group, because she was afraid. The biggest fear of people with bubbly personalities and who can do greeting ministry right, is that they’re going be rejected. She bore this for about three years.
Wow. We talked about it so much within our discipleship. And finally, one day, she mounted up the courage to invite her small group, and she wants to begin to change this so that it’ll become a missional community instead. And their whole mission will be to serve their kupuna neighbors.
When Kelsey made that invitation for this group, only five people said yes. About 25 people left. Complete rejection. It was hard. They didn’t understand why. “Why do you want to break up this group? We have a good thing going. Why are you …? Why? This is where I feel fed. This is where I feel like I am a Christian. Why are you ruining this?”
It was a really, really hard thing. Kelsey’s heart was broken because of this. But she just started with those five. It felt really humble and humbling to do it, but she started with those five. And with one, the smallest of those low-income senior facilities — 73 residents — she just started doing bingo and pizza night. What senior citizen doesn’t love to have bingo and pizza night? I cannot tell you of a one person?
And this became a robust community. There’s probably like 25 to 30 seniors coming to this — nearly a third of the entire neighborhood is coming at this point. Then, lo and behold, the pandemic hits, and lo and behold, Kelsey cries again. But this time her heart isn’t broken because we can’t stream a service for these seniors. Her heart is broken because she hears stories about these kupuna – think about March, April of 2020. They’re going and taking the public bus to go to the local food bank to pick up two cans of food to put in their pockets because that’s all they can carry, take the bus again. And they’re doing this on a regular basis. They go in and close their doors because they’re so scared. That’s what broke Kelsey’s heart and that’s what broke her discipleship for those fine folks’ heart.
So, during the pandemic, and this grew throughout for the three years for the pandemic here in Hawaii, we were able to provide one month worth of groceries every single month for every single resident, not just in that one low-income senior living facility, but in all three on that bike path that Kelsey went through years ago. And that amounts of 500 people.
We did that for three years. And it didn’t stop there. Seven years later now we have discipleship cores in every single one of those living facilities. They’re not the disciples in those — we just call them neighborhoods because they are. They’re not volunteers. They’re not young volunteers. They’re the seniors. They’re the kupuna. They’re made up of people of the age of 65 and older.
For one of them, most of them are octogenarians. And so, our urgency in discipleship has changed. We know that we only have five years with them — five years where these people are being discipled for their meaningful Christlike character, theology, wisdom, and missional living.
Yes, octogenarians can live as sent people also because God assumes that of them. You know what’s happened in these neighborhoods now? Where once it felt like prison, because everybody would have their doors closed, everyone’s suspicious of one another, there’s no resources, now it’s like a college dorm when you go visit all these places. Every single door is open. And when one person gets a box of goods, they share it amongst themselves. Auntie down the hall, she needs more toilet paper than I do, so I give them that. Or the hottest commodity is the nori packets, right, or the rice, right? Everyone’s sharing now.
This all happened because Kelsey felt like her discipleship and imitating Jesus meant that she’s going to face rejection. Overturn her own assumptions and really, really bank on, that if she centers discipleship, then actually the behavior of her own people would change to also include her kupuna neighbors and that they can also be discipled and change their neighborhoods. Centering discipleship does this.
[00:16:33] Cara: Thank you for sharing that. That’s a beautiful story and I just don’t have anything more to say than that. That’s just beautiful. I understand why you said that you might cry. The power of that willingness to challenge those assumptions and facilitate those and embrace those changes.
Change is scary. But look what happens. I’m wondering then now for those in our congregations that are established and that are seeking to embrace and live their own stories like that, what kind of recommendations or encouragement or advice would you give to them as they surrender and transform their assumptions and structures and then resulting behaviors to centralize discipleship?
[00:17:34] Eun: That’s such a good question. My biggest advice after all of those things, right after the humble work of reassessing, all those kinds of stuff, when you get to a point for, especially for established churches and heritage churches, my biggest recommendation is don’t unleash this new program of new pathways of discipleship. I’d say just start small.
Find the Kelseys in your midst. Guess who’s actually going to be the disciple makers? It’s going to be them? Guess who are — you need more examples of mature disciples apart from just you? And so, find the Kelseys within your midst and clarify discipleship with them.
I think there are three different identifying markers for who inherited or established church leaders should probably do this experimental first of first kind of discipleship core within their already established churches. It’s the kinds of folks who have decision-making power in your church. It’s probably the elders or leadership team folks. Not every single person has to do it, but somebody, some folks who are able to make decisions, they’re already empowered to do that.
Folks who have relational authority in the church — you know who I’m talking about. It’s social influencers within your church context. Whenever they have a party, people come and have a good time. But they are also the people most trusted to feel loved by people. So, folks who have relational authority.
And then the last group of people are those who have what I call scriptural authority. It’s the folks who you know they’re the go-to-people, where they’re the folks who have been the holy people, the people who are the elders of elders?
I would make a group of folks who have those kinds of authority within the reality of your church today if you really want to do this well.
That fourth category are the folks who are already being sent out. They’re probably not the folks who are the most involved in church. They’re probably the most involved in your community or neighborhood. If you really want a challenge, include and invite those people as your first of first. As you work out your discipleship pathway, what it could look like in your localized setting, those kinds of things, include these people from the get go, so that as you begin to multiply different discipleship cores, these bounded sets within your local church, these folks also have great input into what those discipleship pathways are going to look like. And then you will have already made these disciple makers who are going to be leading these discipleship cores in the future.
[00:20:24] Cara: I really like that advice, too, in our setting especially. One of the things and tools that we work with is The Five Voices. And in terms of change management, one of the things that a lot of our listeners will know is that in change management, wanting to do one of the recommendations is to do like test runs or trial runs or start small, as you’re saying, because that helps to build the bridge for those who maybe need to see tangibly some examples of this preferred vision or future that we’re moving towards. And so, to do that and start small with this first discipleship core, that is also strategic, with who is invited into that, versus saying okay, now we’re like topsy-turvying the whole structure of this church that has existed for the last 50 years.
Eun: Yes.
Cara: It is kind, I think, to do it in that way.
[00:21:49] Eun: I do work also in the UK for centering discipleship with the Church of England, Church of Scotland. And these are churches that have been around for over a thousand years. Yes, it is extremely kind not to flip everything around for the whole parish neighborhood. It’s unkind if we were to do that. So, how do you begin to lovingly, compassionately, but also strategically think through how to start small?
[00:22:05] Cara: No, that I think is a great word of advice to end our series on, listeners. I hope, and I pray that through this mini-series, through your engagement with the book and hopefully a book club/book study cohort that you are able to find yourself at a place where you are considering and planning and doing the work to start small in centering discipleship in your local church context. Again, if you haven’t yet had an opportunity to read the book. There will be a link in the show notes for today’s episode. So, go ahead and check that out there.
And, keep an eye out for Eun’s upcoming release this fall of 2025: You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone: The Power of Sharing Leadership. Pre-orders are available now, if you want to be a go-getter and get ahead of the curve there. I am so thankful for your time, for your insights, for your labors of love that you have put into this book and into your consultations for churches all over the world so that we might be those that center discipleship and not just a discipleship that we don’t understand or can’t touch and feel and smell, but one that is, clarified one, one that is real livable in community.
So, thank you so much for joining us on the GC podcast. It is our practice to end our episodes in a word of prayer. And so, could I ask you to pray for our listeners and leaders, members, and neighborhoods across GCI?
[00:24:11] Eun: I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.
Jesus. I just thank you, thank you, thank you. I thank you that you are with and close and near to every person who is listening here, to every single person who’s engaged in these mini-series for every minister and lay leader and congregant and disciple of Jesus all around the world through this ministry. I just pray that whatever may burning in folks as they listened, whatever may feel like a challenge or a comfort, whatever may be some confusion, I pray that you will be tending to them. I love that you know that discipleship is important, that this is what you centered your entire ministry on.
I love that you banked on the flourishing of your kingdom to come for your disciples, not through programs or certain kinds of leaders, but you just asked and called just regular folk. And we’re all regular folk who are transformed into these beautiful, wise, full of character, full of your wisdom, full of your sentness, full of your ways of thinking and loving and decision-making because we become more and more like you, Jesus. Beautiful. Full in every way.
So, I just pray that as we, as leaders have courage to center discipleship in all of our churches and communities, that we’ll do it with such love and care that you have shown to us. In your good name, we pray, amen.
[00:26:04] Cara: Amen. Until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.
Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.