Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am happy to have Bharat Naker as our guest. Bharat is senior pastor in the Brisbane area of Australia and is the team leader for the Christian Discipleship Pathway in Australia. Thank you so much for joining us, Bharat.

Bharat: My pleasure, Cara. Thank you.

Cara: And today we’re going to be continuing our exploration of our 2025 theme of kingdom culture. And we’re going to do that by continuing our conversation of our investment of time, talent, and treasure in the kingdom.

And today we’re going to be focusing specifically on talent. And so, Bharat, I’m wondering, just to start us off. What would you say? What does our talent have to do with kingdom culture? And by that talent, meaning our gifts and our strengths and the things that we are gifted and led to give to our surroundings and our teams and things of that sort.

[00:01:29] Bharat: Yes. Thank you, Cara, for that question. I find it interesting in reflecting on 1 Corinthians where they thought they were so gifted. And then Paul had to remind them that really it is God who works in us to do what is good and what is best. And in that sense, they had to die to themselves and allow Christ to work in them. And to know that, in that sense, it doesn’t matter whether we have few gifts, as it were, in our own eyes or if we think we have plenty of gifts. Either way, it’s all in submission to Christ, without whom we can do nothing.

So, I would say that as far as the kingdom culture and the kingdom of God is concerned, it is clearly God’s calling. It’s God’s gifting. It’s God work, God’s work in us. And, without that, even if we bring gifting to the table, it may need to be crucified before it can be used. And that sounds very painful but God’s gifting is a wonderful thing.

And he has equipped everyone with talents and giftings. We are made in his image. We already are gifted just with the gift of reflecting God in our being as created in His image. So, already God has already blessed us so tremendously, and yeah, so it’s wonderful to be called to serve with our talents in the purpose that God calls us to.

[00:03:11] Cara: Yeah. Thank you for that.

And I think that sets us off in a really meaningful place, because like you said, it’s about what we’ve been gifted from God and that that is offered through us, not about what we feel like we ourselves are bringing to the table on our own by ourselves, but all coming from God. And I think that’s a really important place for us to start because we start from that humble posture of receiving, not from that arrogant posture of I’m bringing this talent, I’m bringing something to the table that’s of me and only me, and so I’m better than somebody else, or maybe I’m less than somebody else. And there’s comparison in that way. But it’s about what God is doing in and through us and how he’s reflecting who he is through his people.

And I love how you say even our talents might have to be crucified, because in that sense we’re talking about the stewardship of our talents. Maybe they do need to be refined in that way, transformed in that way because there maybe are things about our talents, that maybe we do sometimes have selfish motivations about it or arrogant motivations.

And it doesn’t mean that that’s not the gifting God has given us. We just need to be discipled in that area so that our use of that gifting reflects the kingdom more so than this kind of dynamic of the world where, maybe, we’re like, I’m better than you because I have this gift. So, I think that’s such an important place that you’ve started us off with.

[00:04:52] Bharat: It’s a reminder from from this book called Crucifixion of Ministry. We see so many mega ministries, not to put them down or put anyone down, but the issue is that when we trumpet our gifts, as in, I will build a church, I will build a ministry, I will be superhero, then the issue becomes time and again this crucifixion of ministry. Clearly people have all … anything we have comes from God. Life comes from God. Gifts come from God. Everything comes from God. But it is to be channeled for kingdom service. And so, it has to be reshaped, not in the form of the world, but in the form of Christ.

[00:05:45] Cara: Yes. And I think even, I love that you referenced, like in 1 Corinthians and the Corinthian church, how they felt like, yeah, we have all of these gifts and talents and things like that, that as the church we bring to the table. Because Paul, as he addresses them later on, as he’s talking about those gifts and their role in the church, then he goes on to say, but essentially like it’s all useless without love, right? What’s the use of these things without love? Because love is the greatest way.

And so, I think that even this is a good reminder for us. What does it tangibly look like for our talents and our gifts, our strengths that we’re bringing to the table in our lives in ministry, to be being refined in that way. Is it being used and offered in love? Is it being expressed in love? And if not where we may be just — I love that expression — like clanging symbols, right? So, I really love that you referenced that kind of dynamic in Corinthians.

[00:06:59] Bharat: Moses said, “Look, I don’t have the gift of speaking and I don’t think I can do this job. See you later.” But God, when God calls someone for a purpose, he does not just change his mind about that. He doesn’t withdraw his calling. He’s going to work through, with that person. So, whichever way we come at the gifting thing, where thinking we don’t have any gifts, well, Moses was told, “Look, I’m the one who equips you anyway.”

[00:07:32] Cara: I love that. That’s an excellent reminder, too, in all ways it’s really coming from God. Whether we feel ill-equipped or over-equipped, it’s about what God is doing and how he’s leading us even to use these gifts he’s given us.

[00:07:47] Bharat: Absolutely.

[00:07:48] Cara: Yeah. And so, I was just wondering what it has looked like for you to be discipled in your investment of your own talents, your own giftings in the kingdom.

[00:07:59] Bharat: Yes. Thank you for asking that. Looking back, really, I realize that God does work through other people clearly. And it’s not just a matter of whatever giftings he has just given me, but also the way others come. Encouragers, like Paul had Barnabas to come by his side and help him in the growth of his ministry. And I think mentors and supporters or encouragers are very important in this journey. I found that as I was beginning in my Christian life, there were people who had journeyed ahead, who encouraged me in one way or the other, to say, “Hey, why don’t you join with me in public speaking? Or why don’t you do this? Have you considered this?” And I think of a couple of those examples.

So, my discipleship has been helped through the encouragement of others, I feel, including my ministry call. Because it was at a particular juncture when my wife and I were newly married, that we came across a person who right away, for some reason, saw something, that we were newlyweds and that we were young, that we can be discipled further, and they encouraged us to to come to college, to go to college in United States, or to consider applying for college and to see where God leads us. And that was theological course.

So, it changed our life completely, because of someone tapping on our shoulders and saying, “Have you considered this?” So, I’ve been discipled, if you like, through the help of others, as well as God working in me for his purpose, and helping me grow in whatever giftings he has given me.

[00:10:11] Cara: I really love hearing that example of how the church, as a community, as a body of people is lived out in this, that you’ve been discipled in those relationships, and that the community of the church has worked that way for you, and that this isn’t something that we do in isolation.

And so, I wonder, it makes me think about the Christian discipleship pathway that you guys are using in Australia to continue to disciple and develop the giftings and the callings and the ministry participation of some emergent leaders across the country. And so, can you just share a little bit more about that and how that is creating a space to support the discipleship and stewardship of their talents and their giftings into the kingdom.

[00:11:09] Bharat: Absolutely. I would love to discuss that because it’s been an exciting two years in this process. We are in the second year of our Christian discipleship pathway.

So, it began, of course, about three years ago when we were considering how best we can implement a ministry training center in our region that is Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands like Fiji and Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea. This is the region that we are serving in, that Daphne is leading as the superintendent in this area.

And her heart was for how can we best serve? And part of that was getting some help from outside in consulting for how can we implement a future-looking plan, a vision. And we came up with the help of another ministry person outside of Grace Communion who sort of held the mirror for us as a leadership team.

And from that, one of the things we identified was the need to build up leaders and to build up new leaders as well. So, for young and old, so to speak — when I say old, I don’t mean … I think that there is prospect for ministry at every stage of life. Some of our best, if you like, servants are people even in their eighties and even early nineties. So, it’s never too late to minister, no matter where we are, what stage of life we’re in. It’s just the shape of that ministry and the opportunities might differ at different ages. But we felt strongly that we want to do something to equip and disciple people further in whatever they’re doing or if they’re not doing, to encourage them to grow.

So, the Christian Discipleship Pathway came about as a result of considering the MTC for our region. But we realized that maybe we need a bit more broader approach to include the sort of realities of our region. We are spread out and it’s hard to have a concentration of a group for starting, at this stage, starting a ministry training center. So we thought let’s do something still in the region of developing people. And we are blessed with Ambassador College of Christian Ministry based here —ACCM.

And so, we thought, why don’t we combine mentoring in one term and then encouraging those same people to continue on with qualification in ministry through ACCM. So, it’s a twofold calendar year. The first term is on developing skills, if you like, softer skills or ministry skills that are not academically oriented, per se, and to encourage how they can serve in their local area.

This discipleship focus has gone in a threefold way. One is how can they serve all throughout the year in their particular area. The second thing is to equip them with practical skills in the first term and discuss those and encourage those. And this is all happening through Zoom in terms of actual teaching.

And then in the second term they get to enroll in the Ambassador College of Christian Ministry. And already we’ve ended the second year. So, the first year was Jesus and the Gospels, second year course was spiritual formation.

So, that’s what we’ve done and we’ve had, oh, over 40 people each year enroll from across the region. And it’s been really exciting to see that.

[00:15:25] Cara: That is an encouraging thing to hear about, and I think one of the themes that I pull out of that again as well as with your own experience that you shared is coming together in community to be developed and discipled, to come together in community as we grow. And what are the ways that God has gifted us and drawn us into ministry participation? And that we don’t do it alone. There are ways that others can speak life into us. There are ways that others can help to develop what God has already put there.

There are ways that we can be encouraged, that we can be mentored. I love that mentoring is one of the aspects of the CDP and it has those kind of multidimensional aspects, where you have the academic, you have the hands-on, you have the relational, you have the what does this look like? Long term in your local kind of context, what does it look like? Today, right now, what skills are you needing and developing? And I think a key thing that I wanna draw out for the listeners is that it’s intentional. What I heard is what you guys are doing is very intentional. And I think that that is one way that we can shape our stewardship of our talents personally as well as corporately to shape our stewardship of talents in the kingdom is to be intentional about how are we discipling one another? What spaces are we creating to do that? And I’m just so encouraged hearing about your CDP and what that engagement has looked like.

[00:17:15] Bharat: Yes. Thank you, Kara. And you bring out two good points that I want to reemphasize or to talk from our experience, and that intentionality was the driving force in creating the CDP. I well remember the first times we’d started discussing and the road for us as leaders wasn’t clear as to how we’ll go about doing this. But we were all of one mind as we prayed about it and discussed it and even what to call this new intentional vehicle, if you like. And we thought discipleship has really got to be at the core of this thing. And so, create a pathway where not just some of our students are young in their twenties, especially in Fiji, and it’s exciting to see avenue leaders, young leaders, as well as we’ve had some students who are still serving in their eighties, who have agreed to participate and at different stages. Not everyone goes from one year to the other, but we get a mix of different ones each year.

The other aspect that I want to emphasize, which you mentioned, was mentoring. Daphne was very keen to see that the students are not just left — the participants, I should say — are not just left with the Zoom sessions, but have someone to talk it over with, a mentor that could encourage them.

So, each participant is assigned a helper, a mentor with whom they could discuss their progress. So, this has been really good because that is outside of, if you like, the gathering stage where we gather to over Zoom. They may be able to meet their mentor locally or sometimes even across regions. And this has been fruitful in terms of even cross-regional development and individual mentoring of participants. Some of the participants are already experienced and elders already serving. Others, as I said, are brand new students, young students who are starting off. So, that variety is also good because in that community setting there, everyone is learning together, humbly encouraging one another, and just growing in that process.

So yes, it’s an exciting, intentional process and we don’t have it all figured out, but we’ve started by the grace of God. And so, we’ve started in this adventure of learning and growth and we just hope we can build upon it as we finish off this year. And we are already looking at now how do we go about the third year?

And one very important aspect of that ongoing development is this, going back to how I was tapped on the shoulder by others and encouraged along the way. In participation we are encouraging all the pastors to see who’s serving, who can serve, and to tap them on the shoulder, encourage them to participate.

[00:20:51] Cara: Yes. Oh, there’s so much richness there in what you just said. I think the first thing that really spoke to me is in the mentoring and in kind of the multi-generational participation in this development pathway, I think two things are really important that I want our listeners to hear from what you’re sharing is when we have that mentoring, then there’s multiple ways that people are able to be investing their giftings in the kingdom because mentoring’s also a gift. And being able to pour into others is a gift to the church community.

And so, what a beautiful way to intentionally create space for that to happen and for that to happen in an ongoing way. And I think the way that you guys have created a space for people at different life stages to, like you said, humbly be engaging and growing in what their discipleship and what their ministry participation looks like is so important because our lives are not static, because our God is not static, right?

And so, stewarding our talents, I believe, is a lifelong process, because maybe at different stages of life, we have different skill sets that are more meaningful to us than others. Maybe we’ve learned things that we didn’t know before. Maybe we have access to information and knowledge and networks that we didn’t before.

There’s so many things that are dynamic about our lives. Our callings can be dynamic. And so, to create a space where we’re intentionally saying — you don’t say yes to one thing at one point in your life, and that’s it for forever. I think is a beautiful thing that you guys are doing, a very dynamic way of stewarding and discipling our giftings.

So, I love that. And I think also what I don’t want our listeners to miss is what you said about that shoulder tapping. I think that shoulder tapping makes me think of the Engage of our Four Es, tapping on the shoulder and saying, “Hey, I see this gifting in you. I see what God is doing in you, what he’s put in you. Do you want to come along and participate? Do you want to see what it would be like to develop this gift, to exercise it in the ministry of our local congregation? And to be discipled in that way?” I think that’s huge, because how many of us, if it wasn’t for someone tapping us on the shoulder and saying, “Hey, I see what God has put in you,” if it wasn’t for that, how many of us would even be where we are today? So yes. Thank you for mentioning that shoulder tapping. I think that, I agree with you that is so critical.

[00:23:43] Bharat: Absolutely. And then yeah, and it’s encouraging also to see when, say — I’m thinking of one particular person who there was an opportunity in a service to say, “Would you like to do reading?” because the person who was supposed to do a scripture reading could not come. And they said, “Yeah, sure I’ll do the reading.” And they were a new member. But I’ve seen that person grow and they’re actually one of our chief participants. I won’t embarrass them, but they’ve grown so much through just being invited to participate and to contribute in a small way. And that’s just blossomed out into this whole continuous growth. And in a short period of time, too, like in a couple of years, they’re serving in a tremendous way. So, one never knows these turning points, how tapping someone on the shoulder for even a small invitation to participate can change, be the start of that leaven leavening the whole lump type of thing, where they just start growing by the grace of what God is doing in their lives. And, and I like your statement about creating space.

[00:25:04] Cara: Yes. That’s an excellent example. And I think even starts to answer the last question that I had for you today, for our listeners that are hearing this conversation and are like, “This sounds really rich, really meaningful. What is the next step for us?”

My question for you is, what is one way we can practice the discipleship, the stewardship, the investment of our talents in the kingdom? And so, I think some of the things you’ve just mentioned start to answer that already. So, what else would you add to that for our listeners who are wanting to move forward with stewarding giftings into the kingdom?

[00:25:46] Bharat: Yes. I would say an openness. Sometimes we all have our own fears and concerns about our own abilities. And we find in scripture that even to Mary, who’s encountered, or the disciples, one of the first things God says is, “Don’t fear. Be at peace. Be open to the opportunity.”

And so, what am I saying? I’m saying that as one intentional way that people can respond is, when an opportunity comes, to trust God to walk them through it and not to close the door on an opportunity to serve in some way. Even if you feel, I’m not equipped for this opportunity, trust God that if he has opened the door to try to see where that leads. If that sounds too mystical, but you know what I’m saying, be responsive. That’s what I’m talking about.

[00:26:56] Cara: Yes. No, absolutely. I think that is great advice for our listeners because when we’re open, that leaves us open to the discerning of the Spirit and whatever next step God is inviting us into.

So, thank you for sharing that wisdom with us and for the richness of your entirety of the insights that you’ve shared with us today, Bharat. I am so thankful for what God is doing through the CDP, what he’s done through your life and leadership, and so thankful for you taking the opportunity to pass those insights along to us today.

As we like to do with GCPodcast we love to end the show with prayer and so, would you be willing to pray for our leaders, our churches, our members, and listeners across GCI?

[00:27:49] Bharat: It’d be my pleasure to pray for others. Yes.

Thank you, Lord. We just thank you for the wonderful blessing you’ve given us of including us in your mind and in your communion as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We thank you that you are, you delight in us, that you delight in seeing us grow, and we have so much growing to do, each one of us, and it is only possible in Christ. As it says you are the vine, we are the branches, and we want to be fruitful in the calling that you’ve given us.

So, I want to pray for all those who are listening today, and even those who may not be listening, those who’ve been called to serve in whatever way. I just pray, Father, that we in Grace Communion can continue to hear your call to grow, to participate in Kingdom work, to continue to recognize that we are kingdom servants and that is our primary call in life as your people. So, help us to be not just citizens of the Kingdom, but to be ambassadors. And as ambassadors, help us to grow in that in that capacity to serve in the unique locations in which you place us and help us to grow in our giftings by by being open to you as you work in our life. So, we seek your blessing, Lord, and thank you so much. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

[00:29:32] Cara: Amen. Folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.